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I'm no longer an anti-theist
#11
RE: I'm no longer an anti-theist
(September 5, 2022 at 11:00 pm)Ranjr Wrote: Mental health can be hard to keep in stressful times.  So, believe in fairies if that helps you crawl back to camp.  Just don't expect me to believe or insist your means to an end was an end in itself.

The believing in fairies line, is one I tell when a family member asks me why I don't go to church. 🤣 I'll never forget when my grandpa passed away, a priest came to his house and gave him last rights, hmm, didn't make him feel any better health wise, didn't keep him alive, still makes my blood boil when I think of it.
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#12
RE: I'm no longer an anti-theist
I don’t think I’ve ever been anti-theist - most of the theists I’ve known have been perfectly nice people - but I’m definitely anti-theism.

Sort of like the atheism version of ‘hate the sin, not the sinner’. Smile

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#13
RE: I'm no longer an anti-theist
(September 6, 2022 at 3:16 am)Tomatoshadow2 Wrote:
(September 5, 2022 at 11:00 pm)Ranjr Wrote: Mental health can be hard to keep in stressful times.  So, believe in fairies if that helps you crawl back to camp.  Just don't expect me to believe or insist your means to an end was an end in itself.

The believing in fairies line, is one I tell when a family member asks me why I don't go to church. 🤣 I'll never forget when my grandpa passed away, a priest came to his house and gave him last rights, hmm, didn't make him feel any better health wise, didn't keep him alive, still makes my blood boil when I think of it.

I feel ya. I tried to throttle the priest who officiated at my Da’s funeral. He declined to press charges.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#14
RE: I'm no longer an anti-theist
(September 5, 2022 at 4:56 pm)Duty Wrote: At work today I met a man who spent his whole childhood in care and later prison, including for murder. He is in his late sixties and his face and demeanour reflect his tragic and tortured life. He did not have to disclose this information to me but clearly felt he trusted me enough to be honest and open. He wears a crucifix around his neck and today I decided the LAST thing I'd want to do is proverbially "snatch that chain from around his neck" - the thought that he is forgiven for the "sins" of his youth/past and that salvation awaits is likely all that keeps him going. There are doubtless 100s of thousands of others like him in the same boat.

My outspoken atheism/anti-theism is a thing of the past. If anybody asks me from now on, my reply will simply be "I'm an agnostic."

Truce

I've never been an anti theist in the sense of simply because they are a theist, it's not the person I don't like it's their wanting to dump their beliefs on me, at which point I object.

My reply (if asked) as always will be 'I'm an atheist'
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
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#15
RE: I'm no longer an anti-theist
Not wanting people to dump their beliefs on you doesn't make you an antitheist in the correct sense of the term - in which it refers to a persons appraisal of theistic belief sets,  anymore than it would make a person an antitheist in the incorrect sense of the term..in which it refers to a person that is....anti-theist-people...(i guess?).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#16
RE: I'm no longer an anti-theist
Right, atheism doesn't imply anti-theism. I think even if you are of the opinion humanity would be better off if no one were a theist, not even that rises to antitheism if you don't actually take positions opposing anyone believing in a deity. It seems a necessarily activist position to me. I've never argued with theists who didn't want to argue with me. That said, I'm a committed secularist, I will petition and vote that way. I've never declined to vote for someone because of their theism; but their attempting to bring young earth creationism into politics is a different matter.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#17
RE: I'm no longer an anti-theist
A person not wanting other people to push their beliefs on them may not be an atheist or an antitheist.

Antitheism, specifically, is in that group, insomuch as (or when) the beliefs being pushed are theistic beliefs, but that shouldn't be taken to mean that an antitheist would object to any beliefs being pushed. I just think it's hilarious to see people explaining how they're not [insert some bad thing called antitheism], they're just [insert accurate description of antitheism here].
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#18
RE: I'm no longer an anti-theist
(September 5, 2022 at 4:56 pm)Duty Wrote: At work today I met a man who spent his whole childhood in care and later prison, including for murder. He is in his late sixties and his face and demeanour reflect his tragic and tortured life. He did not have to disclose this information to me but clearly felt he trusted me enough to be honest and open. He wears a crucifix around his neck and today I decided the LAST thing I'd want to do is proverbially "snatch that chain from around his neck" - the thought that he is forgiven for the "sins" of his youth/past and that salvation awaits is likely all that keeps him going. There are doubtless 100s of thousands of others like him in the same boat.

My outspoken atheism/anti-theism is a thing of the past. If anybody asks me from now on, my reply will simply be "I'm an agnostic."

Truce

Where to start...

Atheism - the disbelief in the existence of gods
Antitheism - the philosophical position that religion should be opposed
Agnosticism - the position that the existence of gods is unknown, and possibly, unknowable

Saying you are an agnostic, does not answer the question for which "I'm an atheist", or "I'm a theist" would be an answer to. In other words, if someone asks you if you believe in a god, and you answer, "I'm an agnostic", you are not answering the question.

The question, "do you believe in a god?", is asking about whether you accept the proposition that a god exists as being true, or do not accept that proposition. It is not asking if you claim to know if a god exists, or not.

Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Most atheists do not claim to know, that gods do not exist. Most atheists are, philosophically, agnostic-atheists. Also, many (honest) theists, are agnostic-theists.

Seems to me, that you are just using the word agnostic, in its colloquial form, as a sort of way to exclude yourself from being labeled an antitheist. To avoid ruffling any feathers.

The bottom line is, if you are currently unconvinced that at least one god exists, you are an atheist, by definition.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#19
RE: I'm no longer an anti-theist
Wont avoid ruffling them anyway. The mere fact that a person doesn't believe is itself an affront to the intellect of the deeply committed believer. The assent and warrant of society is the single greatest factor in the assumption of ideological beliefs about anything. If two people fundamentally disagree on what one of them thinks is just a manifestly obvious fact of reality..then at least one of them might be a fucking idiot..and we don't do well (psychologically) when we have to wonder whether that possible idiot is us.

From where I sit, antitheism has turned into something that barely even needs a name. It's something like a "no shit" or "duh" proposition in western atheism. The term has baggage, and that causes people who are fully anti-theistic to distance themselves from the word while considering the content to be not so much a position as a trivial fact of a matter. Between that and religious posing and framing I can understand stuff like this, on one level - but it makes no sense to me..ultimately.

Chris Hitchens was an antitheist. Who(m)ever came up with cavarkan hindusim..antitheist(s). Humanitarians..... are antitheists. Absolutely anyone who explicitly rejects the idea that the organization of human society or the proper conclusions to human decisions are described and constrained by the whims of personal and intervening gods is..by definition, an antitheist. There are historic theists who were antitheists..because they thought, in a word...that gods existed.... and sucked.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#20
RE: I'm no longer an anti-theist
(September 5, 2022 at 4:56 pm)Duty Wrote: At work today I met a man who spent his whole childhood in care and later prison, including for murder. He is in his late sixties and his face and demeanour reflect his tragic and tortured life. He did not have to disclose this information to me but clearly felt he trusted me enough to be honest and open. He wears a crucifix around his neck and today I decided the LAST thing I'd want to do is proverbially "snatch that chain from around his neck" - the thought that he is forgiven for the "sins" of his youth/past and that salvation awaits is likely all that keeps him going. There are doubtless 100s of thousands of others like him in the same boat.

My outspoken atheism/anti-theism is a thing of the past. If anybody asks me from now on, my reply will simply be "I'm an agnostic."

Truce


Let me add, that not all atheists are antitheists. In fact, I know a couple of theists, Deists specifically, that are antitheists, in that they vehemently oppose religion, yet they believe in a god. And most atheists live their lives without too much thought about religion.

So, do not equate atheism with antitheism.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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