[Serious] Does Trump deserve some credit if Iran...

[The Grand Nudger]

Unless that toast is in russia, I guess?

Meanwhile, I don't think that any non eurasian nations power or wealth is dependent on sticking it to some eurasian. I'd actually point to this -very- ideological belief as the source of the problems in both eurasia, and outside of eurasia as it relates to eurasia. Just some silly little scuffle about who's gonna stick it to who first, hardest, best, and last.

Nonsense. That's how it all ends, that's how everyone loses.

[Jehanne]

That sounds like what you believe must happen™ for some ideological reason or another, not what actually must, or what has.  As things actually went, a eurasian superpower fucked up eurasia and created exactly the outcome you feel a non eurasian seat superpower would effect.  I guess..I'd suggest that there's more than one way to skin a eurasian...and you don't have to do it remotely?

Yup, because the Soviets were SO exemplary when it came to looking after the welfare of Ivan the plumber and his family.

Boru

In short, Capitalism won. Bob the Plumber beat Ivan the Plumber. Of course, now what?

(Admittedly, this thread is diverging in multiple directions, and that's okay; hope to move it back on track, eventually.)

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Yup, because the Soviets were SO exemplary when it came to looking after the welfare of Ivan the plumber and his family.

Boru

In short, Capitalism won.  Bob the Plumber beat Ivan the Plumber.  Of course, now what?

(Admittedly, this thread is diverging in multiple directions, and that's okay; hope to move it back on track, eventually.)

I tried that earlier. I’ll try again:

What has Donald Trump done that would foster the emergence of a democratic, secular state in Iran?

Boru

[Anomalocaris]

Unless that toast is in russia, I guess?

Meanwhile, I don't think that any non eurasian nations power or wealth is dependent on sticking it to some eurasian.  I'd actually point to this -very- ideological belief as the source of the problems in both eurasia, and outside of eurasia as it relates to eurasia.  Just some silly little scuffle about who's gonna stick it to who first, hardest, best, and last.

Nonsense.  That's how it all ends, that's how everyone loses.

no, soviet union or russia are in themselves nothing special and their falling by the way side would otherwise not be worthy of any particular angst, except for the fact the soviet union was the only power that could counterbalance the US.   so the fall of soviet union without either contemporary fall of the US as a disproportionately strong hegemonic power, or the rise of another Eurasian power that could replace Russia in counterbalancing the US, was most likely a historic inflection point towards more problematic long term global future.

[The Grand Nudger]

Russia is a eurasian superpower..or..at least......was....

IDK how well it counterbalanced the west, looks like not so much at present....but hey..more broadly, I don't think that the wellbeing of anyone, in the us or in eurasia, depends on there being some ready us enemy in eurasia, or defeatable us enemy in eurasia. That is an ideological belief about zero sum games and the necessity of opposing "the west" to human wellbeing.

[Jehanne]

In short, Capitalism won.  Bob the Plumber beat Ivan the Plumber.  Of course, now what?

(Admittedly, this thread is diverging in multiple directions, and that's okay; hope to move it back on track, eventually.)

I tried that earlier. I’ll try again:

What has Donald Trump done that would foster the emergence of a democratic, secular state in Iran?

Boru

In politics, the end justifies the means. (If the United States had lost the Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln would not have been viewed as having been the greatest US President by most historians.) If the authoritarian government in Iran collapses and a democratic one replaces it, it will be because Donald Trump had ditched the nuclear deal, which led to unrest in Iran, which caused their government to collapse, which led to democracy.

Score 1 for Trump. How could it be viewed otherwise?

[Angrboda]

This thread has a track? It started with a muddled question and has gone downhill from there.

[Anomalocaris]

Russia is a eurasian superpower..or..at least......was....

IDK how well it counterbalanced the west, looks like not so much at present....but hey..more broadly, I don't think that the wellbeing of anyone, in the us or in eurasia, depends on there being some ready us enemy in eurasia, or defeatable us enemy in eurasia.  That is an ideological belief about zero sum games and the necessity of opposing "the west" to human wellbeing.

actually, not the west, but the united states specifically.    it just so happen that at the moment the dominance of the US is such that much of the rest of the west sees there is more to be gained through exploiting recent historic kinship by abetting american hegemony and hopefully ride american coat tails for a while.   but this is not an issue of east vs west.    it is an issue of 80% if the world being dominated by a single offshore power whose most fundamental interest lies in keeping that 80 % unable to coalesce and offer effective resistance to itself while retaining for itself the power to do onto others a lot more than others can do onto itself.

[The Grand Nudger]

Bananapants, if you ask me... but purely ideological either way.

[Jehanne]

Russia is a eurasian superpower..or..at least......was....

IDK how well it counterbalanced the west, looks like not so much at present....but hey..more broadly, I don't think that the wellbeing of anyone, in the us or in eurasia, depends on there being some ready us enemy in eurasia, or defeatable us enemy in eurasia.  That is an ideological belief about zero sum games and the necessity of opposing "the west" to human wellbeing.

actually, not the west, but the united states specifically.    it just so happen that at the moment the dominance of the US is such that much of the rest of the west sees there is more to be gained through exploiting recent historic kinship by abetting american hegemony and hopefully ride american coat tails for a while.   but this is not an issue of east vs west.    it is an issue of 80% if the world being dominated by a single offshore power whose most fundamental interest lies in keeping that 80 % unable to coalesce and offer effective resistance to itself while retaining for itself the power to do onto others a lot more than others can do onto itself.

Who is the United States dominanting?

Consider it from a Darwinian perspective. Whereas births are limited in the West by the reproductive freedom of women (clearly threatened, but not yet eliminated in the US), other areas of the World surviving infants are limited by the environment, such as healthcare, food, clean water, etc. Getting and sustaining the United States military into and within a theater of operation is $1 billion per day.

As with the conflict in Afghanistan, we can kill our opposition en masse, but only at great financial cost to ourselves, which means that if our opposition can continue the fight by producing enough children while not exceeding their environmental carrying capacity, they could fight us indefinitely. In this sense, a draw is as good as a win.