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RE: Islam owns atheism with a single verse
July 14, 2023 at 4:54 pm
(This post was last modified: July 14, 2023 at 4:57 pm by Bucky Ball.)
(July 14, 2023 at 4:51 pm)Loaded dice Wrote: (July 14, 2023 at 4:45 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote: Until you can prove that Mohammad really ascended to heaven on a winged horse,
If you're an atheist you need to take a step back and discuss God's existence instead.
The "existence" of God is meaningless. If it "exists" then it doesn't *not exist* and found itself as only a part of Reality.
A real god would have to be the totality of Reality, and without only certain qualities. Reality is larger than your god, from eternity, thus the question remains .... "What created Reality" within which your god exists as a partial element and not the totality. Theism is incoherent.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell 
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RE: Islam owns atheism with a single verse
July 14, 2023 at 4:59 pm
(This post was last modified: July 14, 2023 at 5:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(July 14, 2023 at 4:51 pm)Loaded dice Wrote: (July 14, 2023 at 4:45 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote: Until you can prove that Mohammad really ascended to heaven on a winged horse,
If you're an atheist you need to take a step back and discuss God's existence instead.
Why, is it gonna do something to us?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Islam owns atheism with a single verse
July 14, 2023 at 5:03 pm
(July 14, 2023 at 4:45 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote: (July 14, 2023 at 4:38 pm)Loaded dice Wrote: I see you've already made up your mind about the Qur'an being a mythology.. not a good start. Until you can prove that Mohammad really ascended to heaven on a winged horse, I will regard the Qur'an as a book of mythology, just like to Bible, The book of Mormon, The Vedas, or the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead.
Not to mention the Qu'ran and Bible share their mythology liberally.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Islam owns atheism with a single verse
July 14, 2023 at 5:08 pm
(July 14, 2023 at 5:03 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: (July 14, 2023 at 4:45 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote: Until you can prove that Mohammad really ascended to heaven on a winged horse, I will regard the Qur'an as a book of mythology, just like to Bible, The book of Mormon, The Vedas, or the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead.
Not to mention the Qu'ran and Bible share their mythology liberally.
Didn't he fly to Jerusalem on a donkey ? On my parents "ranch" every year we have a couple baby donkeys.
My younger brother keeps trying to get them to fly. No luck so far. But if anyone can get it to happen, it will be him.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell
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RE: Islam owns atheism with a single verse
July 14, 2023 at 5:11 pm
(This post was last modified: July 14, 2023 at 5:12 pm by Mister Agenda.)
(July 14, 2023 at 4:49 pm)Loaded dice Wrote: (July 14, 2023 at 4:45 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: If great originator, then my existence.
I never claimed this. You're putting words in my mouth.
It doesn't follow from God existing that we exist. He could have chosen to not create us.
You said:"You are the evidence. Your existence is evidence of a great originator. Please think wisely" I quoted you in my reply to you. My existence can't be evidence for a great originator unless you assume the consequent.
If a tree is burned, it leaves ashes.
There are ashes, therefore they are from a burned tree.
The essence of the problem of affirming the consequent is that it assumes what it's trying to prove. Ashes can come from burnt things besides trees. I could have some other origin than an omniscient universe creator. In order to arrive at me being the evidence for a great originator, you have to eliminate every other possibility for my origin. And you haven't come remotely close to doing that.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Islam owns atheism with a single verse
July 14, 2023 at 5:13 pm
(This post was last modified: July 14, 2023 at 5:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Maybe Loaded was raised in an orphanage, but I can clear this up. When a mommy and a daddy love each other very much......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Islam owns atheism with a single verse
July 14, 2023 at 5:13 pm
(July 14, 2023 at 4:54 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: A real god would have to be the totality of Reality,
That's called pantheism, Bucky, we're not entitled to it. You're just replacing the word reality with God. In other words, you made the word God meaningless, congratulations!
(July 14, 2023 at 4:54 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Reality is larger than your god,
I doubt you can define what you mean by larger here. But let's assume you're right, great, so what?
Does reality being "larger" than God disprove his omnipotence ? No, because God can still act in whatever way He wants in any corner of reality.
Does reality being "larger" than God disprove his omniscience ? No, because God can know everything about reality, even though He doesn't "occupy" it at all times.
So... did you think this through?
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RE: Islam owns atheism with a single verse
July 14, 2023 at 5:14 pm
The amazing shrinking god. Congratulations, you've zeroed in on one of the things I find most hilarious about it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Islam owns atheism with a single verse
July 14, 2023 at 5:16 pm
(July 14, 2023 at 5:13 pm)Loaded dice Wrote: (July 14, 2023 at 4:54 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: A real god would have to be the totality of Reality,
That's called pantheism, Bucky, we're not entitled to it. You're just replacing the word reality with God. In other words, you made the word God meaningless, congratulations!
(July 14, 2023 at 4:54 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Reality is larger than your god,
I doubt you can define what you mean by larger here. But let's assume you're right, great, so what?
Does reality being "larger" than God disprove his omnipotence ? No, because God can still act in whatever way He wants in any corner of reality.
Does reality being "larger" than God disprove his omniscience ? No, because God can know everything about reality, even though He doesn't "occupy" it at all times.
So... did you think this through?
Larger, the universe exists.
The whole concept of this deity disproves omniscience.
Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni:
"You did WHAT? With WHO? WHERE???"
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RE: Islam owns atheism with a single verse
July 14, 2023 at 5:19 pm
(July 14, 2023 at 5:11 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: You said:"You are the evidence. Your existence is evidence of a great originator. Please think wisely" I quoted you in my reply to you. My existence can't be evidence for a great originator unless you assume the consequent.
If a tree is burned, it leaves ashes.
There are ashes, therefore they are from a burned tree.
The essence of the problem of affirming the consequent is that it assumes what it's trying to prove. Ashes can come from burnt things besides trees. I could have some other origin than an omniscient universe creator. In order to arrive at me being the evidence for a great originator, you have to eliminate every other possibility for my origin. And you haven't come remotely close to doing that.
I am not sure whom you're talking to here, really.
The OP isn't even an argument, it simply states that God's existence is obvious, when once contemplates reality.
More to the point; I don't have to eliminate any possibility for your origin, because that's not how arguments are generally stated for theism. An argument for theism would simply attempt to prove that your existence is best explained by God. You can always take the way out and posit any other hilarious scenario for your origin, the only problem is that it would be of very low initial plausibility.
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