US National Debt Ceiling.

[reverendjeremiah]

Right. So if the credit was cut off, the US economy would collapse. Military might or not.

It depends on what the higher ups want to do. Like I said, American govt CAN raise the debt ceiling, but they aren the only ones in play right now. And you are correct, military might or not, it can happen...I expect the debt collectors to work with them

---

Right. Apparently silver is the place to be.

You got the idea...but diversity is important as well.

[theVOID]

If we cut off the credit, we would have to revert back to the gold standard..there isnt enough gold on the planet to push the economy of this size of our population.

Umm, economics fail...

If you cut off credit going on to a gold standard is the last thing that makes sense, it's going to thwart the ability of the Fed to print dollars to buy government bonds, at least without making it extremely obvious to everyone who doesn't already get it that they are making you all broke - At least now if the Fed prints money it's not immediately obvious to everyone that their dollars are worth less, they only see it through price increases a few months later, oil and food goes up in price and the government can quite easily get away with blaming that on the "evil corporations" raising prices, namely because 1.Keynesianism is too complicated for the average person to understand so they don't see the wool being pulled over their eyes, 2. you're all suckers - something you've obviously already fallen for with your belief that companies cause inflation.

The government won't be able to shift the blame, nor will they be able to exclude food and energy from the 'core' CPI and GDP so they can get away with lying about the state of inflation because on a gold standard it's immediately obvious what has happened to prices relative to gold - Rather than paying $1500 an ounce pre "quantitative easing" (monetizing debt) the price of Gold goes up to $1800 or so and everyone can see immediately that they've been ripped off.

Also, the quantity of gold has nothing to do with it, there could be 1/1,000,000th of the quantity of gold and you could still have a gold standard - You could have a Tin standard if you wanted, or a mixed precious metal index - all it means is that the price of the dollar is relative to some commodity is relatively stable because you can't just create more gold to monetize the debt - It requires fiscal responsibility, something than your tax/borrow and spend government is terrified about.

Right. Apparently silver is the place to be.

Silver absolutely, same with Gold, Tin, Iron, Copper, Salt, Sugar, Corn or any other currency that isn't the US dollar - The Canadian, Australian and New Zealand dollar are at 52 week highs, your currency is even falling relative to the freakin Euro! Every major trading country apart from the Yen right now has a currency that is increasing relative to the dollar

Like Marc Faber said, "when you're loosing a beauty contest to the Euro you got a be pretty damn ugly".

As far as the "selling off all of the gold" I havent the slightest idea. When it comes to gold and the worlds nations, who knows what they do behind closed doors. I know that there are several ways to invest in gold, and yes you can "buy and hold" actual gold coins, but I do believe there is a law saying that gold is ACTUALLY the property of the US government. What many people do is buy and trade gold "stocks", which are certificates. Or they invest in gold mining operations. Gold is so heavily regulated that it is difficult to get into it, and if you arent well established in it you take a pretty big risk to start.

I don't know about that, but I do know your country hates the very idea of trading precious metals, like the guy who was convicted over the 'Liberty dollars' and sentenced on a bogus charge of counterfeiting - Why do they hate Gold so much? Mainly because if people still saw gold as a measure of wealth (which it is) they would be able to see past the lies and get a good picture of how fucked they actually are.

Gold isn't a risk at all, it's a hedge, it's damn hard to loose money on it. There is absolutely no good reason to regulate it either, let alone tax the hell out of it - For instance if you buy gold and the dollar decreases in value, then you cash out you get taxed as having made a profit! It's nonsense, even when the prices of assets and commodities relative to gold remained stable, meaning you couldn't actually buy anymore with your gold than before, you haven't let them wipe out your wealth so they tax it!

There is more to running the economy on more than just gold. Copper is a good commodity, and one that I deal with most of the time. Its difficult to start off with as well, but I have been doing it for a decade now. When the price hits right, I sell ALL of it and cash in.

Copper is alright, but it's best to trade it short, it's too readily available when needed to hold it long, when the prices get too high people start mining it around the clock and before you know it you've lost a good chunk of your gains, even if the dollar keeps declining relative to other commodities.

If you're going to cash out make sure you only do it when you want to buy stuff, a week can see you loose up to 5% of the value you had in copper once you change it to cash.

If you want a tip it is this, as soon as you next get hint of the Fed going through another round of Quantitative easing go and dump all of your dollars in precious metals, something that doesn't trade as short as copper, silver or gold for instance, and sit on it for a good 5 years, you'll at the very least have secured your wealth but it's more likely that you'll make a damn good buck from it. Be wary of Gold bonds, when they're in high demand more fuckers tend to print certs for metals they don't have, you'll want to be holding it. Might even be worth a trip over one of your borders when it comes time to cash out, they tax it far less than your government.

[Ashendant]

Void what are you talking about the euro is much prettier and colourful than dollar that looks like old journal

[Skipper]

There is more to running the economy on more than just gold. Copper is a good commodity, and one that I deal with most of the time. Its difficult to start off with as well, but I have been doing it for a decade now. When the price hits right, I sell ALL of it and cash in.

Copper is alright, but it's best to trade it short, it's too readily available when needed to hold it long, when the prices get too high people start mining it around the clock and before you know it you've lost a good chunk of your gains, even if the dollar keeps declining relative to other commodities.

If you're going to cash out make sure you only do it when you want to buy stuff, a week can see you loose up to 5% of the value you had in copper once you change it to cash.

If you want a tip it is this, as soon as you next get hint of the Fed going through another round of Quantitative easing go and dump all of your dollars in precious metals, something that doesn't trade as short as copper, silver or gold for instance, and sit on it for a good 5 years, you'll at the very least have secured your wealth but it's more likely that you'll make a damn good buck from it. Be wary of Gold bonds, when they're in high demand more fuckers tend to print certs for metals they don't have, you'll want to be holding it. Might even be worth a trip over one of your borders when it comes time to cash out, they tax it far less than your government.

That was a pretty intense and informative bit of writing void. Very intense.But I am fucking baked right now, sooooo, Thank you. haha.

[theVOID]

Trade you some copper for that weed!

[Skipper]

haha, as you just taught me so much, you can have as much weed as you like...if you come and get it.

[theVOID]

*Gets on knees*

Please, sweet Jesus, may ye guide me through the cosmos on my eternal quest to satisfy my drug habit, shelter me from bushy weed, weak acid and fake Ecstasy, let not a drop of Robitussin go un-drunk or a line of cocaine go un-sniffed. I ask for your guidance to the nearest tinny house, for you to keep my cash in my pocket so I don't loose it on the way this time and for you to bless me with a nice relaxing high while I listen to No Agenda this morning.

Amen!

[Skipper]

Praise the green. Amen.

[reverendjeremiah]

Umm, economics fail...

Well Damn Void. Apparently I dont know anything about economics, do I?

http://useconomy.about.com/b/2008/04/02/...andard.htm
"the U.S. does not even have enough gold, at current rates, to pay off the portion of its debt owed to foreign governments. For example, China, Japan and other countries own $2.4 trillion in U.S. Treasury debt - but there is only $182 billion (at $743 per ounce) total in gold reserves at Fort Knox. "

And this is 2008 opinions

At least now if the Fed prints money it's not immediately obvious to everyone that their dollars are worth less, they only see it through price increases a few months later, oil and food goes up in price and the government can quite easily get away with blaming that on the "evil corporations" raising prices

Yes. Because our govt always says "evil corporations" when it comes to economy problems.

I don't know about that, but I do know your country hates the very idea of trading precious metals, like the guy who was convicted over the 'Liberty dollars' and sentenced on a bogus charge of counterfeiting - Why do they hate Gold so much? Mainly because if people still saw gold as a measure of wealth (which it is) they would be able to see past the lies and get a good picture of how fucked they actually are.

Strawman - our country has precious metals being traded on the commodities as well as all others. USA trades gold and gold futures. They only heavily regulate it, your hatred of it which methinks is the real intent behind your post.

Wait, are you talking about THIS guy:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110320/us_n...currency_1
Click here to view the current dollar vs. euro rate
http://www.google.com/search?q=dollar+vs...ess&ie=&oe=

Gold isn't a risk at all, it's a hedge, it's damn hard to loose money on it.

Gold is a risk. Sure, not a risk as much as others on the exchange. Being a commodity it means the roller coaster ride of projected futures versus real value will not toss the roller coaster off the track, but it does dip and rise.

In fact gold is doing much better than silver:
http://money.cnn.com/data/commodities/

I also find it funny that you lambast the Dollar and American economy for using Keynesian economics, and then compare it to the Euro, which the EU ALSO uses keynesian systems as well.

So is Europe doing better than America? Their currency says so. Void says America is doing like crap because of Keynesian systems, and holds the Euro up as proof..yet the Euro is working on the keynesian system as well.

[theVOID]

Well Damn Void. Apparently I dont know anything about economics, do I?

http://useconomy.about.com/b/2008/04/02/...andard.htm
"the U.S. does not even have enough gold, at current rates, to pay off the portion of its debt owed to foreign governments. For example, China, Japan and other countries own $2.4 trillion in U.S. Treasury debt - but there is only $182 billion (at $743 per ounce) total in gold reserves at Fort Knox.

And this is 2008 opinions

What has that got to do with "If we cut off the credit, we would have to revert back to the gold standard"? That is the statement I took issue with.

And you didn't say "there isn't enough gold in Fort Knox to bay back the US Debt" you said "there isnt enough gold on the planet to push the economy of this size of our population." - That is bullshit.

Yes. Because our govt always says "evil corporations" when it comes to economy problems.

Not in those words, but do you think they take the blame for rising commodity prices? Fuck no, they blame the private sector and completely ignore the trillions of dollars they print, money that goes into the market and increases the demand for products, raising their prices - It's stoopid policy making.

Strawman - our country has precious metals being traded on the commodities as well as all others. USA trades gold and gold futures. They only heavily regulate it, your hatred of it which methinks is the real intent behind your post.

By "Hates the idea of trading" I should say "Hates the idea of it's people trading", I know that people can invest in gold and a lot of people buy and sell it, but when people barter with any precious metals, like the Liberty dollar guy did for bartering, he gets locked up for "counterfeiting" even though his silver coins had it written on them that they were not legal tender.

Wait, are you talking about THIS guy:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110320/us_n...currency_1

Yeah, he mints silver coins that don't even look like, and explicitly SAY they are not legal tender and gets 6 years in prison and called a "domestic terrorist"

How fucked do you guys have to be when 7 million dollars of silver medallions and bonds constitutes "a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country"?

Click here to view the current dollar vs. euro rate
http://www.google.com/search?q=dollar+vs...ess&ie=&oe=

Right, did I not say down against the euro?

http://www.x-rates.com/d/EUR/USD/graph120.html

In fact gold is doing much better than silver:
http://money.cnn.com/data/commodities/

Ummm.... Not in terms of percentage... If you had invested in silver you would have gotten better returns. Silver is keeping pace with oil, gold is lagging behind a bit. When you compare Silver to Gold on that Chart the first selected item is the FAT line, not the other way around.

That chart shows that silver is growing faster than gold, up 15% vs 5%.

I also find it funny that you lambast the Dollar and American economy for using Keynesian economics, and then compare it to the Euro, which the EU ALSO uses keynesian systems as well.

Dude, I said it was a surprise you were even getting killed by the Euro, as in the Euro sucks balls too and you guys have fucked up so much they're making gains against you, which is NOT a good sign, they are going through the process of bailing out 3 nations right now! If you think that is praise for the Euro you are sadly mistaken.

And the way you come to the conclusion that I am supporting keynesianism from that post is completely baffling.

So is Europe doing better than America? Their currency says so. Void says America is doing like crap because of Keynesian systems, and holds the Euro up as proof..yet the Euro is working on the keynesian system as well.

Dude, they BOTH suck. That you are loosing ground to a currency that is being demolished to get through Austerity measures says something is VERY wrong with your currency. ALL countries are keynesian pretty much, some much more than others, and almost ALL of them have been trying to settle their debts with borrow, spend, borrow, spend etc... It's debt and consumption than got them into shit in the first place, the government's solution is to do even more... That's why almost every country out there is in debt, it's the ones who have gone full steam keynesian stimulus spending that are really fucked right now.