Failed prophecy in the bible if one cares to look

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

That said, I am removing myself from this thread as I obviously will not win an argument with a moderator. 

The fact that you won't win this argument with me has more to do with the fact that I'm an historian than it does with my status as a 'moderator' (I'm actually an administrator here, but I only mention this to add to your butthurt).

Boru

[Paleophyte]

Exactly, we are getting sidetracked by the whole thing about Alexander the Great or modern Tyre. Ezekiel 26 was clearly about Tyre in the time the passage was authored, which would've probably been when Nebuchadnezzar was in the middle of besieging Tyre. It was never intended to be about some event hundreds or thousands of years later.

The only good argument NZ had in response was Ezekiel 26 mentioning "many nations" at the start, but even then when you look at the whole context, it was not meant to be taken literally. Here lies the challenge with understanding prophetic books in the Old Testament (like Ezekiel). You frequently see a mixture of verses meant to be taken figuratively and verses meant to be taken literally, and even sometimes both simultaneously.

That said, if you start from the very first verse and read all the way to the end of the chapter, you will see things more clearly (like why "many nations" is mentioned at the start).

The text of Ezekiel 26 is surprisingly straightforward. It clearly says that Nebuchadnezzar will destroy Tyre. Mentions him by name and by title. The text is unusually clear, suggesting little of the usual bodge of sources and edits.

"7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord."

Really hard to read that any other way. All this Blah-blah-blah about Alexander the Great is just deliberate misinterpretation, because a clear reading of the text shows that it never happened that way.

[Nay_Sayer]

It's been a while, but I vaguely recall the Canaanites and Jebusites turned out to be tougher than the christian god, so he was unable to fulfill his prophecy about driving them out.

Even if I were to grant every prophecy fulfilled, There are far more concerning problems with the bible.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

It's been a while, but I vaguely recall the Canaanites and Jebusites turned out to be tougher than the christian god, so he was unable to fulfill his prophecy about driving them out.

Even if I were to grant every prophecy fulfilled, There are far more concerning problems with the bible.

It’s interesting that the all-knowing, all-seeing, all powerful master and creator of the universe can be stymied by something as mundane as iron chariots.

Boru

[GrandizerII]

Exactly, we are getting sidetracked by the whole thing about Alexander the Great or modern Tyre. Ezekiel 26 was clearly about Tyre in the time the passage was authored, which would've probably been when Nebuchadnezzar was in the middle of besieging Tyre. It was never intended to be about some event hundreds or thousands of years later.

The only good argument NZ had in response was Ezekiel 26 mentioning "many nations" at the start, but even then when you look at the whole context, it was not meant to be taken literally. Here lies the challenge with understanding prophetic books in the Old Testament (like Ezekiel). You frequently see a mixture of verses meant to be taken figuratively and verses meant to be taken literally, and even sometimes both simultaneously.

That said, if you start from the very first verse and read all the way to the end of the chapter, you will see things more clearly (like why "many nations" is mentioned at the start).

The text of Ezekiel 26 is surprisingly straightforward. It clearly says that Nebuchadnezzar will destroy Tyre. Mentions him by name and by title. The text is unusually clear, suggesting little of the usual bodge of sources and edits.

"7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord."

Really hard to read that any other way. All this Blah-blah-blah about Alexander the Great is just deliberate misinterpretation, because a clear reading of the text shows that it never happened that way.

I agree.

Christians do, however, point to "They" in verse 12 to make the case that verses 12-14 are referring to the "many nations" back in verse 3. But this is just a weird way of interpreting this pronoun and ignores that the sudden shift in person is very common in the Old Testament texts. It's much more reasonable to see "They" here as referring to Nebuchadnezzar's army, considering the multiple entities mentioned in the verses immediately prior to verse 12.

Furthermore, we see this sudden shift in person in verse 6 when referring to Tyre. At first, Tyre is referred to as feminine singular then at the end of verse 6, "They" is used instead. So it really is a common thing in the Old Testament texts.

ETA: That said, "They" in verse 6 could also refer to Tyre plus the "many nations" in verse 3. But main point still stands. These texts are not meant to be grammatically meticulous. And we also have to always keep in mind that often times passages from different sources were bunched up together into one passage, which also partly explains the perceived messiness of the text.