US Strikes on Iran (Operation Epic Fury)

[The Grand Nudger]

Nationalist archeology has been an excellent pretext for territorial expansion of late.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Interestingly enough, the state of Hawaii is not covered under Article 5.

It is kind of a stepchild of Article 5, though. Article 4 mandates consultation when a member state feels their territories are being threatened

In the olden days (pre-Trump) I couldn’t imagine an attack on Hawaii not leading to the  Article 4 consultations followed in short order by Article 5 actions. Now, I’m not so sure.

Boru

Right, there's niggles that would likely (especially after Afghanistan's precedent) result in NATO action all the same, through a more-convoluted process. Perhaps in 1948-49 the putative member-states assumed that no NATO country would be adding to national territory any more? I'd think Alaska would fall under the same Art. 4 situation.

I don't know and can't say, that's just a first-approximation guess.

[Leonardo17]

BrianSoddingBoru:
“No. The real cause is that Trump tore up an agreement that was canalizing Iran's nuclear program into civilian purpose, and then manufactured an artificial threat. Iran quite simply didn't have the money to both feed its people and build nuclear weapons, and thus we saw the winter protests.
Trump and Netanyahu both had their own political reasons for instigating this war.
You're being terribly naive.”
 
- There was a former Mossad Director on TV yesterday. He says that the Mossad was heavily invested in Iran since the revolution in 1979. Since the Mid-80’s the Iranian state has sought to build the A-bomb. But Mossad agents were able to delay them through acts of sabotage, assassinations, diplomatic pressure etc. Before the 12 days wars Iran had the capacity to build the A-bomb within a year or less if it wanted to.
 
So this isn’t George W. Bush all over again. And if all of these are correct, what Trump did is exactly what Joe Biden would have done if he was re-elected. And that’s also my conviction. You guys are right about D. Trump not caring about anyone or anything but himself. So he was probably convinced by other people around him + by Netanyahu.
 
Ivan Denisovich:
 
- You are right about the genocide. But Hamas has entered a sovereign state and brutally murdered some 1200 people and kidnapped 250 people (mostly civilians who didn’t have anything to do with the military or anything like that). So this was a genocidal attack too.
 
All I am saying is this: There are intelligent people in Israel and there are intelligent people in Palestine. The only solution to this is the intelligent people from both sides to come together to find a solution.
 
Right now it’s “me vs you” there is irrationality and savagery on both sides. And this has to change.
 
“issrael needs to be sanctioned back to middle ages and then answer for fucking genocide.”
 
- Netanyahu is already a war criminal and he has to avoid the airspace of several countries when he comes to visip his pal D. Trump.
- As I said: We need a stronger international world order and yes, Netanyahu has to answer for his crimes.
 
/ But this doesn’t change the fact that he + D. Trump are absolutely right about Iran.
 
- This isn’t a game. Many countries are dependent on Oil + Chemicals + goods + liquid gas coming from the Strait of Hormuz. (This includes European countries who have recently turned away from Russian energy since the start of the war in Ukraine). So how can you leave the control of such a strategic location to a regime that has gone completely insane since the last 10 years or so?
 
BrianSoddingBoru:
 
“‘Maybe we shouldn’t even be there [Iran] at all.’ - Donald Trump
Don’t think for a moment that this elective war is anything but a way for Trump to distract from the Epstein scandal and his failed economic policies and a plan to keep Netanyahu from spending the rest of his life in prison.
Trump could not possibly care less about regime change or the fate of the Iranian people. The only thing Trump is serious about ending is his disastrous miscalculation in starting this war in the first place. Wake the fuck up.”
 
- You are not wrong on this point. But I don’t know if anything will come out of these Epstein files. Besides: Everyone already knows that D. Trump is whatever he is. This didn’t stop the MAGA base from voting for him tough.
 
There had been an earthquake in the 1998 Monica Lewinsky scandal. Today no one even reacted during the Stormy Daniels scandal. So I don’t know
 
On NATO:
 
- I’m not an expert on this. They launched at least 3 missiles on Turkish Territory which were all intercepted by US defenses. And everybody is talking of a possible war with NATO.
 
So are you saying that if (for instance) an Italian frigate is hit by Iranian missiles in the Strait of Hormuz while escorting (for instance) an Indian oil tanker Article 5 will not come into force?
 
/ Besides, as I said, Trump has angered the Europeans a lot (since his first mandate actually) and several EU leaders like E. Macron have made it very clear that they are there for their allies in Gulf countries in a purely defensive posture.
 
So Trump is not wrong about Europeans. I think they could help him a little. But that’s what happens when a president knows nothing about basic principles of diplomacy

[Ivan Denisovich]

You are right about the genocide.

Obviously.

But Hamas has entered a sovereign state and brutally murdered some 1200 people and kidnapped 250 people (mostly civilians who didn’t have anything to do with the military or anything like that). So this was a genocidal attack too.

Sure, sure. Bad wrong Hamas attacked poor, poor issrael just because. There was no history of issrael oppressing Palestinians or stealing their lands. issrael also isn't illegally occupying Palestine and Nakba didn't happened. If you want to play propagandist then at least learn a little.

Also nice equivocation between terrorist attack and genocide. It is plain to see that your sympathy lies with genocidal regime. Only question is why.
 

All I am saying is this: There are intelligent people in Israel and there are intelligent people in Palestine. The only solution to this is the intelligent people from both sides to come together to find a solution.

All you're saying amount to bullshit apologia of genocidal regime. I hope it is caused by profound ignorance and not fascist sympathies.
 

Right now it’s “me vs you” there is irrationality and savagery on both sides. And this has to change.

It's not "me vs you". It's bloodthirsty oppressor with history of ignoring UN resolutions vs people fighting for their freedom. There is no moral equivalency between them just like there wasn't one when partisans were killing nazis.
 

Netanyahu is already a war criminal and he has to avoid the airspace of several countries when he comes to visip his pal D. Trump.

I'm sure that makes him very sad but his crimes should carry consequences far more severe than mere sadness.

As I said: We need a stronger international world order and yes, Netanyahu has to answer for his crimes.

Not only netanyahu.
 

But this doesn’t change the fact that he + D. Trump are absolutely right about Iran.

Just as Hitler was right about USSR, yes?

 

This isn’t a game. Many countries are dependent on Oil + Chemicals + goods + liquid gas coming from the Strait of Hormuz. (This includes European countries who have recently turned away from Russian energy since the start of the war in Ukraine). So how can you leave the control of such a strategic location to a regime that has gone completely insane since the last 10 years or so?

I can't. But US regime went crazy about years or two ago with trump re-election (not that US was shining beacon of hope before) and issrael was crazy since beginning - see Nakba.
 

So Trump is not wrong about Europeans. I think they could help him a little. But that’s what happens when a president knows nothing about basic principles of diplomacy

Why exactly should Europeans help fascist warmonger on issrael leash?

[Paraselene]

Both sides can be in the wrong.

[Ivan Denisovich]

Both sides can be in the wrong.

There is no equivalency between issrael and Palestine:

Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel said in a new report today.

Palestinians fight with their occupier using terror, that's true. I however don't have any more sympathy to this particular occupier than I would have to any other. Israel is not special and Shoah is just a piece of history, not licence to kill. Curiously enough you don't see Armenians doing crap that israelis do and yet they too were victims of genocide.

[Deesse23]

So are you saying that if (for instance) an Italian frigate is hit by Iranian missiles in the Strait of Hormuz while escorting (for instance) an Indian oil tanker Article 5 will not come into force?

Exactly

Article 5

“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.”

NATO is a defensive alliance, not an interventional one or a retaliatory one. Article 5 does not automatically get triggered once a single bullet is fired at a single NATO soldier. A NATO country must have been attacked. Thats why article 5 wasnt triggered already by american soldiers being shot at. US forces being hit after the US invading another country against international law cant trigger A5. That would be insane. Likewise for Italian ships that Italy puts in harms way supporting a fucking US aggression towards another country. Would that look like "self defense" to you?

NATO is a purely DEFENSIVE alliance, not a gang of bullies making promises to each other in the case one decides to mug a third person.

[Ivan Denisovich]

Likewise for Italian ships that Italy puts in harms way supporting a fucking US invation of another country. Would that look like "self defense" to you?

Considering that he thinks that trump is right about Iran I suppose answer would be yes.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

^There’s a reason that it’s called the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Boru