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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 11:48 am
(Yesterday at 1:27 am)Deesse23 Wrote: (October 31, 2026 at 6:34 pm)Sheldon Wrote: He genuinely doesn't seem to know what moral objectivism means, but is talking about some form of moral authority, from a deity obviously, quelle surprise. That's why he can't address my baby killing hypothetical. His "objective morals", aka divine command theory would force him to say "yes" if his good asked him to kill a baby, or a few, or a few more, or ..
He’s got more problems than that.
God is either the creator/source of Angel’s objective morality, or God is the arbiter of morality (he can’t be both)
If God is the former, then an order to kill a child is objectively moral. If God is the arbiter of morality, then morality is greater than God.
Tangled webs and whatnot.
Boru
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 12:08 pm
Honestly the whole thing crumbles on the following
Theist- God is the source of morality.
Skeptic- Really by what standard do you use to judge that he is moral?
Theist- Engages in circularity.
Theist- God decides what's right and wrong.
Skeptic- Why should anyone care what he thinks ?
Theist- He can punish you.
Skeptic-So why does that make what decides right and wrong?
Theist-God created everything so he has authority.
Skeptic- Why ?
Theist- Because we should respect what people own.
Skeptic- Why ?
Theist- Engages in circularity .
Theist- God never lies.
Skeptic- Isn't that what a liar would say ?
Theist- There are true things in my magic book.
Skeptic-There are true things in pure fiction too.
Theist- Could god give you revelation that you know could be true with certainty ?
Skeptic-Hypothetically yes now show me that it happened to you.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 12:19 pm
(This post was last modified: Yesterday at 12:28 pm by The Architect Of Fate.)
(October 31, 2026 at 6:52 pm)Sheldon Wrote: (October 20, 2026 at 3:46 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: Another word salad. No idea what any of that means.
You have not convinced me an objective morality can exist for you. That's because you don't know what objective morality means, the "for you" part of your sentence makes that crystal clear.
Lets try an example, it is objectively true that all living things evolved, creationists deny this, this does not mean it is not true "for them". Something is objectively true - by definition - independently of anyone's opinion about it. This also doesn't mean they can be forced to accept it is true.
Moral authority, and moral objectivism are two distinct philosophical concepts . His morality seems suspiciously, like whoever has the biggest stick wins and whoever he subjectively trusts would use that stick in a way he approves of is right.
Also explains why he hands his brain over to AI and pretends whatever it spews out refutes someone . . . . Lol
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 4:34 pm
Forget any metaethical dispute or moral question. That's not what's happening here. OP is consumed with ideas about people who got away with it. Ideas about people who disagree and can't be made to agree by reason. With a strong belief in the need of an intentional agent to purse justice, even beyond the grave, in order to satisfy his demands for the world as it ought to be. In light of these demands, and if the world is any other way, then morality - however we define or derive it - is noise.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
Yesterday at 6:07 pm
(Yesterday at 4:34 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Forget any metaethical dispute or moral question. That's not what's happening here. OP is consumed with ideas about people who got away with it. Ideas about people who disagree and can't be made to agree by reason. With a strong belief in the need of an intentional agent to purse justice, even beyond the grave, in order to satisfy his demands for the world as it ought to be. In light of these demands, and if the world is any other way, then morality - however we define or derive it - is noise. Indeed, he wants a threat or a punishment he can throw at the deviant that will force compliance not because it will make that person better or because it won't make them kinder or more compassionate or fill them with any actual desire to care about other people, but one who will be afraid and that fear will make them compliant to whatever end he wants a cosmic Stalin who will throw you in cosmic gulag for disobedience. That's in his mind "objective." means being able to use the most force and is inescapable.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
6 hours ago
(October 20, 2026 at 7:35 am)AngelThMan Wrote: (October 20, 2026 at 6:57 am)Belacqua Wrote: "if human flourishing is better than exploitation and oppression, then slavery is bad." I appreciate you engaging in good faith.
There would have to be an objective moral standard, meaning binding everywhere in the universe, plus always leading to consequences if broken, for slavery to be truly wrong. If there isn't an objective moral standard, slavers do not owe society any explanations for their actions. All they have to do is evade the law of the land, and in terms of the universe they have done nothing wrong. Opinions are meaningless.
Objective and universal are not synonyms. Slavery could be bad for humans and that could be objectively true even if slavery is not bad for ants or the Grinyard people of Sirius Seven.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
6 hours ago
(October 20, 2026 at 8:05 am)Sheldon Wrote: Example: If it is objectively true that infanticide is wrong, why would this not apply to lions? Why would it not apply to biblical deity? NB if the answer is just a subjective belief or opinion it is obviously insufficient to establish the claim as objectively true.
Because objective is not synonymous with universal. Something can be wrong for humans and not wrong/inapplicable to lions.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
6 hours ago
(October 20, 2026 at 9:10 am)AngelThMan Wrote: [quote='The Grand Nudger' pid='2260330' dateline='1792500798']
PHP Code: There you go trying to assert a rule again.
No!!! There are no rules under atheism. None. That's my point, and you're only helping my argument.
There are no rules under theism either. Neither is a rule-making agent. Both are opinions on the topic of whether or not any gods are really real.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
5 hours ago
(Yesterday at 4:34 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Forget any metaethical dispute or moral question. That's not what's happening here. OP is consumed with ideas about people who got away with it. Ideas about people who disagree and can't be made to agree by reason. With a strong belief in the need of an intentional agent to purse justice, even beyond the grave, in order to satisfy his demands for the world as it ought to be. In light of these demands, and if the world is any other way, then morality - however we define or derive it - is noise. Ironically he thinks his obsession is championing moral objectivism, but in reality it's more like a mishmash between moral emotivism, and moral subjectivism, maybe the leftovers of religious and cultural moral relativism.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
5 hours ago
(This post was last modified: 5 hours ago by Sheldon.)
(6 hours ago)Mister Agenda Wrote: (October 20, 2026 at 8:05 am)Sheldon Wrote: Example: If it is objectively true that infanticide is wrong, why would this not apply to lions? Why would it not apply to biblical deity? NB if the answer is just a subjective belief or opinion it is obviously insufficient to establish the claim as objectively true.
Because objective is not synonymous with universal. Something can be wrong for humans and not wrong/inapplicable to lions. Wrong could simply be a subjective term in this context, it is an objective fact that the world is not flat, and this is as true for lions as humans, as it must be if it is an objective fact. Now, humans might believe adultery to be wrong, but I am dubious that this is an objective fact, but rather it is an expedient preference.
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