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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
5 hours ago
(This post was last modified: 5 hours ago by Sheldon.)
(6 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: (6 hours ago)Sheldon Wrote: No I do not agree, and I don't believe any objective moral standard exists either. I can consider rape wrong or immoral without it being objectively true, all I need do is care or empathise about other humans, give it a try. Further more, I do not accept that blindly following rules is morality, even from a deity, assuming you could evidence any deity exists, which is unlikely, or you'd have opened with that.
If rape being wrong is just how you feel, then it follows that it is not objectively evil. It's just your opinion, which no one is required to abide by
Perhaps you can explain why rape is objectively wrong, instead of repeating my answer to your question back to me?
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
5 hours ago
Again he does not establish this so called objective god morality
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
5 hours ago
(5 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: (6 hours ago)Sheldon Wrote: None, but then that is true of all morality including theistic morality, as it represent a subjective choice.
FWIW I'd rather people refrained from acts like rape and murder because they can see it would cause unnecessary suffering, than because someone is blindly following some rules from an archaic superstition.
So it's a matter of preference. You'd rather people don't engage in rape, though it's not an obligation for anyone to abide by your preference. So from your answer it follows that rape is not inherently evil. So my original premise is correct: Without God, nothing is right or wrong or evil
Don't paraphrase me please, as you are now shamelessly moving the goal posts. Your question was about objective truth not moral obligation that is what laws are enacted for, if you can't see the difference then there lies the problem. It follows from my answer that I believe rape to be evil, it does not follow that this is objectively true. Your original premise is meaningless, so through true, it is trivially so, as I have now explained half a dozen times or more, - without mermaids objective morality would not exist is also true, though equally trivial. Unless you can evidence what theology has failed to thus far, that a deity has offered objective moral diktat? So firstly you'd have to objectively evidence the existence of a deity, then objectively evidence it has offered moral proclamations, then finally that these moral claims are objectively true.
So it's your move, I believe.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
5 hours ago
(5 hours ago)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (5 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: So it's a matter of preference. You'd rather people don't engage in rape, though it's not an obligation for anyone to abide by your preference. So from your answer it follows that rape is not inherently evil. So my original premise is correct: Without God, nothing is right or wrong or evil
Under God, rape is not inherently evil, since (according to scripture), God endorses rape.
Boru
That's not the topic. Is your preference binding for anyone else?
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
4 hours ago
(This post was last modified: 4 hours ago by The Architect Of Fate.)
I love how he keeps avoiding establishing where God’s magic binds anyone.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
4 hours ago
(4 hours ago)The Architect Of Fate Wrote: I love how he keeps avoiding establishing where God’s magic binds anyone.
That's a different debate. I'll address it after you admit there's no binding morality under atheism, meaning nothing is right or wrong or evil. If you concede that, then we can discuss your topic
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
3 hours ago
(This post was last modified: 3 hours ago by Deesse23.)
(6 hours ago)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: First, tell me why you think moral values are objective. If you like, you can answer by example - what acts are ALWAYS moral or immoral, that kind of thing.
Boru If he is gonna give one, which he never will, we will immediately show his god violating it, quoting from his holy book
(6 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: Without God, there are no moral obligations. There is no standard anyone is required to follow. So as long as a serial rapist gets away with it.... If the rapist was an atheist and converts to christianty on his deathbed, will be be possibly forgiven?
Your gods standards arent objective, your god does not comply to his own standards, and those "standards" rather are suggestions, than anything thats going to be enforced or its violation be punished (= justice).
Your god is an immoral hypocrite and unjust, per definitionem.
(7 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong. Do you agree? If not, what objective morality exists? With your god there is nothing right or wrong. There is no commandmend or moral obligation given by him he hasnt violated himself or ordered humans to violate them.
Have you educated yourself on objective morals yet?
(6 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: If rape being wrong is just how you feel, then it follows that it is not objectively evil. It's just your opinion, which no one is required to abide by Just to be clear: Are you one of those....people, who need a god to prevent them from raping? In this case, please keep going to church and reading his commandments. Please do not read stuff like Exodus 25, or lots of other stuff in the OT, where your god orders rape, pillage and genocide, please.
This brings me back to my original question, which exposes your moral bancruptcy: If your god would order you to kill a baby, would that be the right thing to do? If he would not keep you from killing babies....what would you possibly do?
Would it be right to kill a baby if God told you so?
Is it ever right to disobey his commands?
Did your god have the capacity to order baby killing in the past?
Does he ever change?
Does he currently still posess this capacity?
All questions, unloaded, with no presuppositions, and easy to answer with a simple yes or no.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
3 hours ago
AngelThMan Wrote:Without God, there are no moral obligations. There is no standard anyone is required to follow. So as long as a serial rapist gets away with it, like Jimmy Seville, there's no obligation unless there's an objective standard, which there is with God. That's my argument.
Without God, there are moral obligations. There is a standard, and it's called ethics, and it's called the law of the land.
If people don't follow ethics, they get chastised by people around them, and if they break the law, they get punished by the state.
Jimmy Savile got away not because there were no moral standards to punish him but because he managed to hide his crimes.
Why is this so hard to grasp for a Christian? Is it the same reason why Christians can't grasp science because it makes their god obsolete?
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
3 hours ago
(This post was last modified: 3 hours ago by Sheldon.)
(5 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: (5 hours ago)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Under God, rape is not inherently evil, since (according to scripture), God endorses rape.
Boru
Is your preference binding for anyone else? That depends on the law of the land, though of course your religious preferences aren't any more binding than mine.
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RE: If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong
3 hours ago
(3 hours ago)Sheldon Wrote: (5 hours ago)AngelThMan Wrote: Is your preference binding for anyone else? That depends on the law of the land, though of course your religious preferences aren't any more binding than mine.
You're not understanding the argument. We have to obey the law of the land, of course. That's not the point. Jimmy Saville raped children and got away with it, and died a happy man. Was he obligated to go by your preference that children not be raped? Why should he care what you or the rest of society thinks?
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