I Had a Dream

[Matthaios]

No "experience" of God can be proven to be anything but a psychological illusion.

Do you think that any experience can be proven to be anything but a psychological illusion? I'd be interested to see how you might construct such a proof.

[ib.me.ub]

You can test the hypothesis that fish exist. By physically catching a fish.

Right, but the hypothesis is whether the fish experienced actually exists or is just a mental construct of some sort. Going out and having another experience of a fish doesn't seem to help a great deal with that hypothesis.

I firmly beleive that reality exists. So where is this 'mental construct' constructed if there is no reality.

[Matthaios]

I firmly beleive that reality exists. So where is this 'mental construct' constructed if there is no reality.

The question isn't whether there is a reality, full stop. The question is whether we should trust the experiences we have that cause us to believe that things are real.

[ib.me.ub]

No, that is your question, not my own. It seems to fit nicely into your beleif system.

I ask you again;

So where is this 'mental construct' constructed if there is no reality.

[KichigaiNeko]

I firmly beleive that reality exists. So where is this 'mental construct' constructed if there is no reality.

The question isn't whether there is a reality, full stop. The question is whether we should trust the experiences we have that cause us to believe that things are real.

Then why believe in your imaginary friend??? Ergo you should NOT trust your "personal experience with your deity" is this what you are saying??
conclusion = "it's all in YOUR mind" and there are quite a few people who have the same experience. Doesn't make it any more 'real'

[Welsh cake]

For many christians, personal testimony, personal experience is a really big deal.

But does personal experience really prove anything?

Isn't it at best like an ink blot test which reveals more about the person than provides any evidence one way or another about god?

Personal testimony is by nature subjective; moreover when the things experienced are non-material, there can't even be plausibility within what is generally knowable.

If your friend tells you he caught a fish thiiis big, at least we know fishes have been known to exist and can be interacted with in a stable way.

The problem with personal experience is that it is necessarily first-person, telling anyone else who doesn't already subscribe to your religious concepts/denomination without question you had a divine encounter or interaction is senseless.

You can't convince or prove anything with testimony alone, expecting your audience to take supernatural claims at face-value is unrealistic; they can't verify the claims for themselves because they have no independent access to the experience(s) being described or investigate what information or data you may have forgotten or deliberately ignored.

Another problem is the claim is so vague we may misinterpret your "fish story" story and build up an inaccurate skewed mental structure of a fish that bears no resemblance to the one you caught, people may even exaggerate the story to the point that eventually that the fish caught was of gargantuan proportions, bigger than a house, and so on. If you wrote this stuff down and let these stories build, those writings wouldn’t be worth the paper they're written on to determining whether there is any truth or validity behind them. Yes, fish are demonstrably real, but through testimony and word-of-mouth alone you do not conflate your abstract concept of a fish with someone else's.

[Faith No More]

No "experience" of God can be proven to be anything but a psychological illusion.

Do you think that any experience can be proven to be anything but a psychological illusion? I'd be interested to see how you might construct such a proof.

Actually I can't, which only proves how fallible the human mind is and its ability to exerience god.

[Matthaios]

No, that is your question, not my own. It seems to fit nicely into your beleif system.

I ask you again;

So where is this 'mental construct' constructed if there is no reality.

Bit confused here...the whole thread is about whether experience and testimony really prove anything - that is the question being discussed. On my view, there is an external reality which we can know by experience and (to a lesser extent) testimony. But I accept that because of God, who has created us with a purpose to loving (and therefore, knowing) realities other than ourselves - the world, other people, and God Himself. I am asking the skeptical question because I want to know on your various views of the world how you justify belief in an external reality.

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Then why believe in your imaginary friend??? Ergo you should NOT trust your "personal experience with your deity" is this what you are saying??
conclusion = "it's all in YOUR mind" and there are quite a few people who have the same experience. Doesn't make it any more 'real'

Actually I can't, which only proves how fallible the human mind is and its ability to exerience god.

See my post above.

[ib.me.ub]

Bit confused here...the whole thread is about whether experience and testimony really prove anything - that is the question being discussed. On my view, there is an external reality which we can know by experience and (to a lesser extent) testimony. But I accept that because of God, who has created us with a purpose to loving (and therefore, knowing) realities other than ourselves - the world, other people, and God Himself. I am asking the skeptical question because I want to know on your various views of the world how you justify belief in an external reality.

Right. You know reality exists becuase of god. Not because of physical & emotional experiences gained through sensory perception. Such as pain, hot, cold etc.

[Matthaios]

Right. You know reality exists becuase of god. Not because of physical & emotional experiences gained through sensory perception. Such as pain, hot, cold etc.

Sort of - I trust my experiences (unless given good reason to doubt them) because I believe that God has purposed my senses for gaining knowledge about the external world.