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(May 11, 2011 at 11:54 am)tackattack Wrote: I guess honesty, forthrightness and open and honest questions (polemics / apologetics) weren't a part of your religious upbringing then. That's a real shame.
My upbringing, no. People usually aren't taught to think for themselves in the South. This makes the indoctrination easier.
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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir
"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(May 11, 2011 at 12:08 pm)tackattack Wrote: That it does. Sorry to hear that.
I might say further that if those things had been part of my upbringing, I probably would have become an unbeliever much earlier. I was not that much different rationally at 22 years old than 30. It was only from my own efforts that some "honest questions" surfaced. They just never occurred to me beforehand.
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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir
"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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Or perhaps if your fundamental doctrine had been questioned earlier and answered sufficiently then you might still be a theist. Alas, we will never know.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(May 11, 2011 at 1:19 pm)tackattack Wrote: Or perhaps if your fundamental doctrine had been questioned earlier and answered sufficiently then you might still be a theist. Alas, we will never know.
I'm quite sure the doctrine was sound. I've been to almost every denomination of church and listened to all types of preachers, from more traditional pastors to contemporary types. Most were very good pastors with compelling, well-thought out messages. I've had personal conversations about these questions with believing friends and pastors. Yet believers always seem to insist that I haven't heard the "right" message or don't have a precise handle on the correct doctrine. That these answers are apparently so elusive to a person like me who, at one time, wanted to continue believing but simply could not, speaks volumes. Why are these answers to elusive? Why didn't the Holy Spirit provide a word or two of clarity to a person sincerely interested in understanding why a loving God would require the sacrifice of his son to atone for sins or why God created us in the first place if he knew beforehand that we would sin and become cursed?" It's profoundly illogical.
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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir
"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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The problem with God is that he has shitty P.R. He needs to come down from heaven and tell us in person what he wants and how he wants us to worship instead of speaking through his more wild-eyed & crazy followers.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
Frankly, I find understanding through faith to be in a large part about timing. Perhaps you had never had God reveal anything to you as you are supposing. Perhaps the person you were speaking to about these questions was using a logical answer as opposed to really helping you understand it in your heart and mind. Perhaps it just isn't your time to believe. I can't fault you for not believing without any evidence, as I don't fault a lot of atheists on here for their belief. As I do see evidence for me though, hopefully you can see where I see that as a denial of evidence. I can understand that you personally see no evidence for God, but are/were you looking? NVM, don't answer that. This isn't the time or place for that. Happy posting, I'm sorry you're having problems with your family. If you'd like an "inside opinion" feel free to ask.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
May 12, 2011 at 8:14 pm (This post was last modified: May 12, 2011 at 9:01 pm by Zenith.)
(April 30, 2011 at 2:53 pm)everythingafter Wrote:
Some of you know my basic story. Former believer, churchgoer, turned unbeliever a few years ago. I announced this on my blog, which posts back to my Facebook account. My evangelical parents thus read this, got upset to the point of crying themselves to sleep one night (yes, that bad) and apparently are still upset three years later.
My parents were in town for a visit over lunch yesterday. After lunch, we got into the car and my mom said she found a book that she wanted me to read. She pulled out "The Case for Christ" by Strobel. Realizing where the conversation was headed, I quickly said that I had already read that, along with tons of other apologetic works. My dad was like, "Oh you've read that too?" I said yeah. My dad, who is a hard headed, set in his ways and outspoken about it kind of person, then proceeds to ask me how many atheists are in the U.S. I said a growing number, but I didn't have an exact count, obviously. He then said all kinds of stuff about how nation was based on Christian principles. He also tried to suggest that Jefferson wasn't a deist, which, as we know, he almost certainly was. He said the Jeffersonian Bible supported Jefferson's belief in Christ as god, rather than the alternative, which sounded like an argument Glenn Beck would have made. He also asked how millions could be wrong about Christianity if it's false. You know, that whole truth in numbers argument. I said that its human nature to want to invent gods to explain things that science has yet to explain. He looked through the car windshield and said something like, This isn't enough proof. This meaning the world and all its splendor, I guess. I started getting frustrated at this point.
He kept talking and implied at one point that I was blaming God (again dredging up the argument that I was angry at God for some reason). I said forcefully that I wasn't blaming God, that I was denying God. "There's a difference," I said.
I said little after this, realizing that there was no point. After we got to our destination, my mom, who hasn't said anything this whole time, had been crying, and she was crying when we said goodbye. As for my dad, he was fine, and tried to make some small talk near the end to smooth things over a little. Pretty pissed at this point, I didn't say much. Took the book with me and left my mother in the van with tears in her eyes (yes, it's that bad).
So, what the hell am I supposed to do with this? I feel bad having upset my mother, but belief is not something I can just "turn on" to make people happy. I presume my mom is so upset about this because of the "hell" thing and well her only son rejecting something they hold so dear. Should I write a letter and try to explain that my rejection of God was not intended to upset anybody, that it was just my sincere attempt to get at the truth, regardless of where that search may have led me? To do that, I have studied apologetics, the historicity of Jesus, science, astrophysics and many other areas. They have studied nothing but the Bible and faith-affirming books like Strobel's, etc.
I mean, to me, it seems like it's getting serious. I mean, what if I get sick one day, and my family is pleading with me at the last to turn to God? And my refusal to do so makes the already dire situation even worse. I just don't know what to do at this point except move far enough away to be out of immediate reach, but that would probably be the end for my mother. To their credit, my parents are more protective than some because I almost didn't make it to my fifth birthday because of a rare immune disease with which I was born, and they attribute my still being here to a miracle from the heavens. I attribute it to medicine and the doctors who researched for years looking for a treatment (And I said this on the aforementioned blog post). My grandfather apparently made a "pact with God" that if God would save me, God could take my grandfather. He died in his early 60s. My father never fails to bring this up ... to make me feel guilty, I presume. But do I not have an ounce of personal space or am I forever devoted the spirit of my ancestors? I'm 33, but they seem to have no ability to realize my ability to think for myself. They think I'm simply misguided (probably by the devil or something).
Any suggestions? I would just kill myself to escape this rock-and-hard place situation, but I couldn't in good conscience do that. ;) You guys see the divide here. I don't take like too seriously or worry myself into a tizzy. That's pretty much all they do it seems. As ever, religion poisons everything.
I believe that you cannot solve that situation. The only good thing that can be done that would please your parents is for you to believe that things are as they believe they are, and do the things that they expect you to do. And, because you can't do that (perhaps no one could, if he was in your shoes), it is impossible to make your parents happy. 99.9999% sure they will never consider atheism as a possibility, so it is useless to try to prove them something (i.e. to convert them to atheism) or to make them look at atheism as to a possibility, because they will never be able to see it as such.
(May 11, 2011 at 1:58 pm)everythingafter Wrote: why a loving God would require the sacrifice of his son to atone for sins
It hasn't anything to do with love.
Consider this situation: A man has raped a child (a boy) of 10 years old. After some years, he is caught and brought to trial, along with the child and the child's parents. We assume that something happened and the molester realized that he did evil and would never do that again, if he was given the possibility. The judge has mercy on the poor molester, seeing his sincere regrets and decides to forgive him, just so - he sets him free. Is what the judge did a "good" thing? I guess we all agree that even if the judge was a good and forgiving man, he punish the aggressor, no matter if the aggressor had realized that he did evil and changed, or not. If the judge does not punish him, then it means the judge is evil and corrupted.
Or, another situation: consider that a very rich man is very implicated in charitable things, and he helps many children. But, one day, he is caught that he has raped a child. The question is, should he be punished for his crime or simply "forgiven" because of all the good things he did? Isn't it just to be punished for the evil he did? If he wasn't punished, wouldn't that be unjust? (and therefore, evil)
So the idea is that a loving God would be unjust/unfair/evil if in his love he would forgive all the crimes of millions of men and women, just so.
Quote:or why God created us in the first place if he knew beforehand that we would sin and become cursed?"
Perhaps He was following a higher objective. If He knew that He could have sent His son later in order to fix things, then the creation of man would have worthed it.
May 13, 2011 at 2:17 pm (This post was last modified: May 13, 2011 at 2:22 pm by everythingafter.)
(May 11, 2011 at 8:56 pm)tackattack Wrote: Frankly, I find understanding through faith to be in a large part about timing. Perhaps you had never had God reveal anything to you as you are supposing.
My problem is why does a person have to ask for God to reveal something to him for years with no answer? What would such a revelation be like? A thought that I think might have come from God? A feeling in my heart? An audible voice? Most adamant believers don't even claim to have heard something so concrete. So why is such a revelation of his truthfulness apparently so hard to perceive, even for someone who wants to believe?
(May 11, 2011 at 8:56 pm)tackattack Wrote: I can understand that you personally see no evidence for God, but are/were you looking?
I'm not sure what you're asking. I already said I was looking, or at least I was at one time.
(May 12, 2011 at 8:14 pm)Zenith Wrote: Perhaps He was following a higher objective. If He knew that He could have sent His son later in order to fix things, then the creation of man would have worthed it.
But wouldn't the very need to "fix things" imply that God erred on the first plan? This, it seems to me, would negate his divinity.
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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir
"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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