The Soul

[Cinjin]

our spiritual health is real time, just like our physical health. Doing bad stuff is detrimental to your spiritual health, and makes you sick. Instead of enjoying life you're brought down by guilt and sadness. If we foster our good aims we get better at it, and our health is increased. God comes into this via an improved moral focus. His perfect morality versus our own selfish morality.

It sounds like hat you're talking about is simply your conscience. Guilt, above all others is registered there - in the physical mind.


As a Deist I come from a much different perspective.

[fr0d0]

Like I said it's integral and essential to the conscience, although not the same thing.

As a deist do you think that god made us and left? That there is nothing spiritual in humans? 'Deist' seems very non descript in the same way that 'theist' might be... can you define your beliefs more accurately?

[Eudaimonia]

When I stopped believing in a god, a very queer thought came to mind. If god is man-made and non-existing, what about the soul, the very reason people believe? Is there actually such a thing as an immortal part of the human? I know two things; I have a body, I have a personality and I quite safely say that neither are permanent. Considering that the atoms in my body change all the time, that eventually it will decompose when I die, I think it's quite safe to say that it isn't going to be here forever. My personality on the other hand has changed already during my years on this planet, and a decent bang to the frontal lobe and it might change quite radically and I might not be "me" anymore.
So, what is the soul? Well, a musical genre, to be sure, but does it really have anything to do with the human body? Is it just another creation of man to freak people out that there actually will be retribution after death? That there is such a thing that can be collected by an utterly selective deity, seem to me ridiculous. I don't believe that there is anything in the human body that could be immortal. I think it's just another mean to scare people into obedience, a mean to make religion make sense.
But what do you think?

I believe there is no soul.. There is a personality stemming from a mix of biology and social interactions..

I do not think man created the idea of a soul to scare people.. I believe the idea of soul is a result of man's sincere ignorance..

[Minimalist]

The soul is also an immediate and essential part of us.

Evidence? Or are we merely being treated to Frodo's Philosophy of Life?

[Kayenneh]

@ Kayenneh
I think you're taking my point in the very opposite way to what I intended (missed the first line completely). The soul is also an immediate and essential part of us. The abuse of the concept (the guilt trip), like most things, is people trying to take advantage of people.. ie anti Christian.

What the soul definitely isn't is physical. In no way at all can it be remotely biological, chemical or physical.

To answer your question: our spiritual health is real time, just like our physical health. Doing bad stuff is detrimental to your spiritual health, and makes you sick. Instead of enjoying life you're brought down by guilt and sadness. If we foster our good aims we get better at it, and our health is increased. God comes into this via an improved moral focus. His perfect morality versus our own selfish morality.

I did not miss the first line at all, I just don't understand in that case what else could go on in a human being after death, if not the supposedly immortal soul.
If the soul isn't biological, chemical, physical or psychological, then we either are missing a vital science that could show us what a soul is, or then there is no such thing. For me personally I need research and evidence before I'm convinced that I've got a soul. The things you talk about are to me psychological, alas, it has to do with the psyche and not necessarily a soul. And don't get me started on the morality of the god of the Bible, but I think I'll leave that to another debate.

[Rhizomorph13]

I think "soul" is a word for the driver of our body. A previous iteration of this idea was the homunculus which was supposed to be a little person that lived inside your head that directed your actions (what directs the homunculus' actions?). Well, when we cracked open our heads and realized that there was no little person, we invented an incorporeal thingy that was the driver, because the experience of being a person lends itself to a feeling of seperation from our bodies. I believe that to be a hallucination. We are but meat and energy; what we experience as existence is simply an interplay between the two.

http://origin-of-consciousness.blogspot....ivial.html

The modern description of the link between brain activities and subjective experience starts from the assumption that there is no "little person" in the brain monitoring the neural activities in various areas of the brain. The "exorcision" of the Homunculus was a necessary and essential step in the advancement of cognitive neuroscience, and the concept of the "neural correlate" is the de facto central dogma in neurophenomenology today.

It is my opinion that the sooner we abandon the idea of the soul the better. It will enable a clearer way to exchange ideas without resorting to "feelings" that originate from our "spirit/soul".

[fr0d0]

I did not miss the first line at all, I just don't understand in that case what else could go on in a human being after death, if not the supposedly immortal soul.
If the soul isn't biological, chemical, physical or psychological, then we either are missing a vital science that could show us what a soul is, or then there is no such thing. For me personally I need research and evidence before I'm convinced that I've got a soul. The things you talk about are to me psychological, alas, it has to do with the psyche and not necessarily a soul. And don't get me started on the morality of the god of the Bible, but I think I'll leave that to another debate.

More accurately I believe it's the spirit which carries on, but we're talking about the same thing What I'm trying to say is that this is of least importance to Christians. What's really important is the present and how you can improve that. That's what fellowship with Christ enables.

Science, as it defines itself, does not cover the metaphysical, only the physical. So if you're waiting for scientific evidence then your wait is for science. If you're waiting for current science to prove the metaphysical then that's illogical.

If you disagree with the morality of the Christian God then you disagree with the Christian premise and you won't be addressing Christianity. That being said many forum members here would gladly join you in such debate on a non premise.

[Cinjin]

As a deist do you think that god made us and left? That there is nothing spiritual in humans?

Yes and No… to both queries. First, I always remind people that I do not pretend to know God nor certainly his will. Perhaps He stops in once in awhile, perhaps He’s here all the time. Perhaps He’s never here. Perhaps He’s more ethereal & natural than tangent & forthcoming … I don’t pretend to know – it’s of no concern to me.
A fellow deist of mine once told me, “I accept Him for what He is the way I assume He accepts me for what I am. The journey my soul is to take was set up long before it even existed and I have no concerns about what the Creator has already planned. ” (A very similar sentiment I later found out, held by Thomas Paine)

So yes, deists believe humans have a spiritual side, but no, probably not the way most religious people would define it.

'Deist' seems very non descript in the same way that 'theist' might be... can you define your beliefs more accurately?

What draws me to Deism is that it IS very non-descript. How can someone claim knowledge of an afterlife that there is no evidence for?
“God spoke to me and I now know what he wants us to do.” If someone speaks these words in today’s society, we all KNOW that they are delusional. AND YET, that is EXACTLY what happened hundreds to thousands of years ago all around the globe. It’s perplexing to me that just because something is very old and the stories are in really old books, written by men that have long been dead – that it must be true. We all mock the Religion of Scientology – and yet every revealed religion on this earth was once as new and absurd as that. The only difference … time.

Yes, I believe the “soul” exists, not some stupid disembodied spirit of a deceased person, but rather a life energy that has transformed from one existence to the next. Unfortunately, like anything of a spiritual nature, it’s probably immeasurable and impossible to prove. Which of course is the other reason I’m drawn to Deism … I have no God demanding me to make people believe the way I do.

That being said, I have no idea what the next stage of existence may hold ... but I look forward to finding out. And if by chance the atheists are right. No problem. I'm fine with that too. If the Christians are right **eye roll and laugh** than I'll be spending a lot of time with some highly intelligent, well-educated people.

[fr0d0]

Thanks CC, very interesting.

Well I might disagree about the highly intelligent people bit!

The only difference to me is... sound theology: is what nut job religions lack.

I know people who are very Godly, who look to live their lives in tune with God and who can express themselves in relation to God. They appear anything but delusional. They are sincere people who live out their belief like the ancient people in the bible did. Thinking of the world with God integral to it.

Do I claim knowledge of an afterlife? No. Do I concede the possibility given sound theological reasoning? Yes.

What do you mean by "next stage of existence"? Are you talking about your re-incarnation?

[Shell B]

I like soul better than rap but I think I'd rather get beaten with an iron bar than listen to rap.

I indulge in a little James Brown every now and then. My lack of ethnic culture of any kind - excepting food - really shows when I dance poorly and clean to Superbad, though.

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I think the complexity of human nature confused people and they needed a simpler explanation. Of course, the soul is not a simpler idea, but it came with a guarantee that there was not much to think about. Your soul is there; god put it there. End of story. That is much easier than pondering human behavior and how mistakes seem to leave a dark mark on our memories, making it seem as if some negative energy has been applied to some intangible part of us.