Was Muhammad a Pedophile?

[reverendjeremiah]

No, because an omnipotent god would not be able to do things which are logically impossible. Aside from that, I think that God merely seems to be limited in his power because He is an all-powerful being who is interacting with a limited world, and with limited minds, and that's why His power goes down to the level of appearing to be limited (from our own perspective). Therefore, I believe that it's it's a matter of perspective, and we cannot ever realize God's full potential as an "all-powerful" being (or what that even means).

Ah yes, the old "my all powerful god is LIMITED by acting within a limited world" excuse.

Thankyou for acknowledging that Allah is unable to make people understand

Personally I thought a god could snap his fingers and make everyone understand with ease..but apparently this faulty world and our faulty human minds are too much for Allah to handle. His power just cant make it past the human mind no matter how hard he tries.

You make Allah sound weak and pathetic...and also a prankster and liar who only wants to "appear" to be limited.

Is that sort of like how Jesus buried dinosaur bones everywhere to test peoples faith?

The fact that I did not mention those does not mean that I am biased on Muhammad (since you don't know whether or not you're being biased in your own list either). Plus, there may be 50 other options and that's why I chose the main 3. Your list is an addition to mines. Nevertheless, people can believe whatever they think is the best explanation of Muhammad's life.

Oh no.. my list remains open for additions...but I felt that between mine and yours it was a pretty good set of choices. Others may add to them as they feel.

[Cinjin]

@ Rayaan: For the record... I kudos-ed Sae for an intelligent and well made post. Secular morals are subjective, the morals of Christians are based on an objective morality... subjective morality gets in the way of that. Cinjin is being deliberately extremist and antagonistic of course to make a show. We shouldn't take what he says seriously.

I do love a good show

But no, I genuinely believe the point I made with Rayaan. I believe there is a line for all humans. No one, from any time period, could ever convince me that something like the rape, murder and dismemberment of an innocent 16 year old girl is morally "subjective" and is determinate to a given culture of whether it is right or wrong. In fact, if a culture does make allowances for those actions, than that entire culture is repugnant and worthy of the majority's condemnation.

Morality - yes, very subjective overall .... but NOT completely. Some things are just wrong.

Anybody besides Frodo and Sae find that view to be "extremist and antagonistic"? No? Cause that's the only point I was making.

[Minimalist]

To you, these "dreams" are an absurd idea. To others, it is not an absurd idea.

NO more absurd than"moses" going up on a mountain or "jesus" going out in the desert or joseph smith running out in the woods....

It's all horseshit, Rayaan. The sooner you realize that yours smells the same as all the rest the better off you'll be.

---

Sae...have you HACKED the board again!!!!!

[Violet]

I don't even care about the discussion anymore

I'm PURPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...

PURPLE!!!!!

I mean... I'm... PURPLE.

What more could I possibly want?

If I hacked the board, it was entirely unintentionally. But my latent psychic abilities might finally have surfaced, so I'll be a little more careful for the next week (not really, IM A POTATO!).

[fr0d0]

But no, I genuinely believe the point I made with Rayaan. I believe there is a line for all humans. No one, from any time period, could ever convince me that something like the rape, murder and dismemberment of an innocent 16 year old girl is morally "subjective" and is determinate to a given culture of whether it is right or wrong. In fact, if a culture does make allowances for those actions, than that entire culture is repugnant and worthy of the majority's condemnation.

Morality - yes, very subjective overall .... but NOT completely. Some things are just wrong.

Anybody besides Frodo and Sae find that view to be "extremist and antagonistic"? No? Cause that's the only point I was making.

I think you can't say it wasn't morally subjective, because it clearly was. But you sensationalize the facts as that is the only way to make your point. If we pull this back to earth then rape murder and dismemberment = marriage to a girl between 9 - 17 to a 50yr old man.

Does that look extremist to you? If not, WHY NOT???

You put yourself in a place of ridicule by using such an extreme twist on reality. We assume everything else you reason is based on such a mad point of view. Fitting for Saerules day I think.

Some things are just wrong, sure. No one is suggesting otherwise.

[Violet]

You put yourself in a place of ridicule by using such an extreme twist on reality. We assume everything else you reason is based on such a mad point of view. Fitting for Saerules day I think.

I like the idea of Saerules Day.... do I feel another decree coming up? Why... I think I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9zfwfITsfk

[Cinjin]

But no, I genuinely believe the point I made with Rayaan. I believe there is a line for all humans. No one, from any time period, could ever convince me that something like the rape, murder and dismemberment of an innocent 16 year old girl is morally "subjective" and is determinate to a given culture of whether it is right or wrong. In fact, if a culture does make allowances for those actions, than that entire culture is repugnant and worthy of the majority's condemnation.

Morality - yes, very subjective overall .... but NOT completely. Some things are just wrong.

Anybody besides Frodo and Sae find that view to be "extremist and antagonistic"? No? Cause that's the only point I was making.

I think you can't say it wasn't morally subjective, because it clearly was. But you sensationalize the facts as that is the only way to make your point. If we pull this back to earth then rape murder and dismemberment = marriage to a girl between 9 - 17 to a 50yr old man.

Does that look extremist to you? If not, WHY NOT???

You put yourself in a place of ridicule by using such an extreme twist on reality. We assume everything else you reason is based on such a mad point of view. Fitting for Saerules day I think.

Some things are just wrong, sure. No one is suggesting otherwise.

o noooo - Not bright red bold! Anything but THAT!

I didn't sensationalize it ... I drove the point home. And your own spinning of the facts is just as bad as my "sensationalizing" (marriage to a 9 - 17 ... nice spin)

It doesn't matter anyway. You finally agreed with me. Frodo said, QUOTE: Some things are just wrong, sure. That was my ENTIRE point. (which even Rayaan realized while you and Sae were still hurling insults at me.)

Therefore, I was right all along - morality is subjective, but only to a certain point - a LINE can be drawn. Game, Set, Match.

[fr0d0]

Game set match - in some parallel universe maybe... but you don't get to call a most possibly innocent event: "rape" and "pedophilia" without the sane people pointing at you and calling for the guys in white coats --- in this universe buddy.

Courts judge where rape/ pedophilia/ murder/ etc has occurred = subjective.

Lets imagine that a court is judging this... They take the evidence presented and make a decision based upon that as to Mohammed's guilt or innocence.
Their judgment is only just given the information provided.

For the defense: Rayaan
Was Aisha 9 or 17? (or anywhere in between)
Did sexual consummation occur pre puberty?
What was the legal age of consent? (and was it morally acceptable then/ now)
Why did Aisha's parents clearly condone the action... was it out of blind obedience to a 'prophet' as they saw him?
Why is there no evidence of disapproval from that society (see above)
Does Aisha's success in life have any bearing?
Do Mohammed's other seemingly balanced relationships and that fact that he commanded respect have any bearing?
(hope I did that justice Rayaan)

For the prosecution: Cinjin; Min;
If the marriage was consummated when Aisha was 9, this cannot be post pubescent medically (citation needed)
Religion blinded the societal moral code around Mohamed (assumed)
(any more?)

The answer is certainly far from clear. Which is all I'm saying. I refuse to judge someone as guilty without evidence.

[Cinjin]

Game set match - in some parallel universe maybe... but you don't get to call a most possibly innocent event: "rape" and "pedophilia" without the sane people pointing at you and calling for the guys in white coats --- in this universe buddy.

Courts judge where rape/ pedophilia/ murder/ etc has occurred = subjective.

Untrue. Those crimes are not subjective - they are a crime regardless and the only thing that could even be considered "subjective" would be the punishment doled out. Also, everyone knows that right and wrong have nothing to do with cultural law. Your point is stupid ... and it's also a whole new debate. Are we changing the topic now?

Edit - I figured out what you meant regarding rape and pedophilia.

You want to lean towards sex with a 9 year old as being beautiful - that's your disgusting business
I choose to lean towards sex with a 9 year old as being pedophilia. (and if nothing more- at the very least statutory rape)

The GREAT majority of people are going to side with me and keep you under heavy supervision.

[Rayaan]

I agree with what fr0d0 has been saying, which is that what a certain people may see as rape or pedophilia was actually just a marriage with a 9-year-old. Even if sexual activity was involved, this doesn't mean that some kind of an abuse was done to her (Aisha). If that was the case, then Muhammad would have been hated by her and people would have insulted him for doing such an act. But on the contrary, everyone was happy with the marriage. So, this makes it reasonable to think that there was no child molestation.

And Cinjin, I believe that secular morals are subjective. Something might be morally wrong to almost every single person, but still, in the end, it is subjective, because I don't know where a line can be drawn. It's the people who decide what is right and what is wrong, what is acceptable. and what is backwards and barbaric. So, it is subjective.