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Well, there is Abram's bosom where the righteous dead await judgment, but the unrighteous are in hell now and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire after judgement day so, there you go.
Quote:HELL DESTROYED
The word hell (hades) appears for the last time in the Bible in the verse following the one in which John tells us that he saw hell give up its dead. In this text we are told that hell is to be destroyed. The text reads, “Death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” (vs. 14) In the Old Testament, God prophesied the ultimate destruction of hell, sheol, hades. Through the Prophet Hosea he promised to “ransom” the people from the power of sheol. This, we have found, was the purpose of Jesus’ death, of his going into sheol. The ultimate result of this, the Lord said, would be, “I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave [sheol], I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.”—Hos. 13:14
John saw hell [hades] destroyed in the ‘lake of fire,’ which he defines as the ‘second death.’ This is not a literal lake of fire, although many have used this text in their effort to establish the Satan-inspired teaching of eternal torture for the wicked. They have spoken of the lake of fire as though it were the hell of the Bible, failing to take into consideration that John saw the Bible hell cast into the lake of fire. Surely hell could not be cast into itself. Throughout the Scriptures fire is used as a symbol of destruction, and this is no exception to the rule. The condition of death which came upon the world of mankind as a result of original sin is to be destroyed, and this destruction is symbolized by a lake of fire.
So Hell and Abram's bosom are waiting places for the wicked and the righteous respectively and both will be destroyed on judgment day.
(June 15, 2011 at 12:11 pm)Skipper Wrote: Any substance to this? Or just another one of the billions of Christians with his own idea on how the bible should be read.
As you might expect, it depends on which part of the Bible you read.
If you focus on Revelation, the first NT book written, it does seem that the dead are in the grave and then when Jesus comes back the dead will rise to face judgment. It's at that point that those who are not found in the Book of Life (according to their works, not faith) will be tossed into the "Lake of Fire".
Paul, who's epistles came next in chronological order, apparently wrote in First Thessalonians that the "dead in Christ shall rise first" when judgment day comes. The dead are described as "asleep", which would imply they're in the grave.
It's only with the introduction of the Gospels that we get any ideas that people immediately go to Heaven or Hell upon death. Jesus in Luke tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Hell, which would distinctly suggest immediate departure to either locale.
As for the stuff about Purgatory or Limbo, these are Catholic fabrications.
My analysis:
Ideas about the Lake of Fire and "asleep" (in the grave) hearken back to the OT. The ancient Hebrews had no concept of Hell and the earliest writings denied there was any afterlife. The world "Sheol" is sometimes mistranslated as "Hell" when in fact it means "the grave". It was a metaphor for oblivion. You die, you stay dead and that's that.
Later, with the Book of Samuel, there developed vague ideas of the afterlife, ones which weren't fleshed out much. King Saul consults with a medium who conjures the spirit of the deceased Samuel to ask his council. The spirit of Samuel demands to know why his rest has been disturbed, indicating some place for the afterlife. Where or what this place was, I'm not sure but it sounds a bit like the Greek Hades.
It therefore makes sense that the earliest versions of Christianity believed that to die was to "sleep" in the grave only to be later summoned to Jesus to stand trial after the second coming.
With the Book of Jeremiah, we have his condemnation of the worshipers of Maloch who's temple was in the Valley of Gehenna. Moloch is condemned as an evil god and his cruelties reviled. The ancient Hebrews believed the valley to be corrupted by the evil which had been done there. They converted the valley into a garbage dump where they burned their refuse. Eventually, they established a ritual of dumping the bodies of executed criminals in with the burning garbage as a sort of final insult.
Hence the wicked dead being tossed into a "lake of fire".
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Believe whatever ludicrous notion you wish pal.
Your assault is misguided, your reasoning is foolish, and your indignant reply about me shooting the messenger is laughable.
(June 15, 2011 at 12:33 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(June 15, 2011 at 12:11 pm)Skipper Wrote: Any substance to this? Or just another one of the billions of Christians with his own idea on how the bible should be read.
As you might expect, it depends on which part of the Bible you read.
If you focus on Revelation, the first NT book written, it does seem that the dead are in the grave and then when Jesus comes back the dead will rise to face judgment. It's at that point that those who are not found in the Book of Life (according to their works, not faith) will be tossed into the "Lake of Fire".
Paul, who's epistles came next in chronological order, apparently wrote in First Thessalonians that the "dead in Christ shall rise first" when judgment day comes. The dead are described as "asleep", which would imply they're in the grave.
It's only with the introduction of the Gospels that we get any ideas that people immediately go to Heaven or Hell upon death. Jesus in Luke tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Hell, which would distinctly suggest immediate departure to either locale.
As for the stuff about Purgatory or Limbo, these are Catholic fabrications.
My analysis:
Ideas about the Lake of Fire and "asleep" (in the grave) hearken back to the OT. The ancient Hebrews had no concept of Hell and the earliest writings denied there was any afterlife. The world "Sheol" is sometimes mistranslated as "Hell" when in fact it means "the grave". It was a metaphor for oblivion. You die, you stay dead and that's that.
Later, with the Book of Samuel, there developed vague ideas of the afterlife, ones which weren't fleshed out much. King Saul consults with a medium who conjures the spirit of the deceased Samuel to ask his council. The spirit of Samuel demands to know why his rest has been disturbed, indicating some place for the afterlife. Where or what this place was, I'm not sure but it sounds a bit like the Greek Hades.
It therefore makes sense that the earliest versions of Christianity believed that to die was to "sleep" in the grave only to be later summoned to Jesus to stand trial after the second coming.
With the Book of Jeremiah, we have his condemnation of the worshipers of Maloch who's temple was in the Valley of Gehenna. Moloch is condemned as an evil god and his cruelties reviled. The ancient Hebrews believed the valley to be corrupted by the evil which had been done there. They converted the valley into a garbage dump where they burned their refuse. Eventually, they established a ritual of dumping the bodies of executed criminals in with the burning garbage as a sort of final insult.
Hence the wicked dead being tossed into a "lake of fire".
Insightful as always Paladin.
Let me ask you this?
What do you know or have you heard about the souls of those that perished before JC died on the cross. Specifically, what explanation have you received from Christians regarding the plight of people who never had the chance to learn of god's redemption??
I have of course heard of one explanation/apology for this, but I would like to get your take on it.
June 15, 2011 at 9:38 pm (This post was last modified: June 15, 2011 at 9:48 pm by Cinjin.)
(June 15, 2011 at 12:32 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Well, there is Abram's bosom where the righteous dead await judgment, but the unrighteous are in hell now and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire after judgement day so, there you go.
I was specifically quoting your post 7.. where you clearly don't give a shit
But in response to this:
(June 15, 2011 at 12:05 am)Cinjin Wrote:
Everybody is missing the whole point.
.
Jesus didn't sacrifice himself on the cross for the world. If you do the math, it seems painfully obvious that he didn't even do it for even half of the world. Not even close.
Consider this:
Jesus wasn't even on the planet till as recently as 2000 years ago. That's a lot of souls he skipped.
Add to that the billions of people who never heard of him simply because information wasn't exactly zipping around the world even 200 years ago.
Add to that the billions that were simply born to a family of Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. etc etc.
Add to that the idea that most Christians admit to and accept - predestination. god's hand picked gems.
When it comes right down to it, Jesus didn't die "to save the sins of the world" ... he died for an ultra exclusive group and if you're damn lucky you were born in the right century, in the right country, to the right family, and had god's approval symbol stamped on your soul!
Hell has got to be just SWIMMING with souls by now!
One school of thought is that Jesus has been around as long as God, and wasn't birthed to Mary, but through Mary. Lots of Christians believe in the Bosom of Abraham concept where there's a catholic style purgatory for both the good and the damned. Some rare instances describe someone being taken up to Heaven, but they wouldn't have been able to get there of their own I'm guessing. Regardless I think Hell is empty.. and Heaven prior to the incarnation was scarce, and since has become either about the same, but most likely almost as void.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
I was specifically quoting your post 7.. where you clearly don't give a shit
One school of thought is that Jesus has been around as long as God, and wasn't birthed to Mary, but through Mary. Lots of Christians believe in the Bosom of Abraham concept where there's a catholic style purgatory for both the good and the damned. Some rare instances describe someone being taken up to Heaven, but they wouldn't have been able to get there of their own I'm guessing. Regardless I think Hell is empty.. and Heaven prior to the incarnation was scarce, and since has become either about the same, but most likely almost as void.
First let me respond to the post 7 issue (which you didn't Quote Box - which is why I didn't know what your were referring to).
I was merely defending myself against a ridiculous accusation by colubridae (no doubt you've seen his brand of "intelligence" in his thread 'For Tackattack'), that I was trying to promote Deism. Thus my remark about me not giving two shits about what people believe. I think most who know me know that I have never tried to "sell" Deism as a more viable belief structure than anyone else's. (and to your credit, I have never seen you trying to "sell" your beliefs either)
...and yes, I have always been interested in the bizarre concepts of Heaven and Hell and enjoy hearing about the many different theories on them. The thread was designed to get people like you and the other believers to put your two cents in. If that makes me a jerk who likes to hear myself talk ... than I spose there is little I can do about that.
Now, putting that tiresome matter behind us - on to your very interesting response ...
I have never heard of this theory that Jesus was around long before Mary. That makes the idea of the Trinity even more confusing and confounding than it already is. Where did Jesus come from than? How can he and the father be ONE in the same? It was hard enough grappling with that when Jesus had an origin. I would like to know more about this theory cause it is definitely new to me. Which is a rare thing indeed.
Regarding Hell being empty and Heaven being nearly void. Can you elaborate a bit more? Are you saying that there are 100 billion souls or so waiting for judgement or are you saying that souls have already gone to hell and died off? and whatever theory you hold to - do you have a Biblical backing for this? Also, are you saying that all souls, regardless of their 'final destination' are in a holding pattern together? As in the same location?
(June 15, 2011 at 10:49 pm)tackattack Wrote: I was specifically quoting your post 7.. where you clearly don't give a shit
One school of thought is that Jesus has been around as long as God, and wasn't birthed to Mary, but through Mary. Lots of Christians believe in the Bosom of Abraham concept where there's a catholic style purgatory for both the good and the damned. Some rare instances describe someone being taken up to Heaven, but they wouldn't have been able to get there of their own I'm guessing. Regardless I think Hell is empty.. and Heaven prior to the incarnation was scarce, and since has become either about the same, but most likely almost as void.
First let me respond to the post 7 issue (which you didn't Quote Box - which is why I didn't know what your were referring to).
I was merely defending myself against a ridiculous accusation by colubridae (no doubt you've seen his brand of "intelligence" in his thread 'For Tackattack'), that I was trying to promote Deism. Thus my remark about me not giving two shits about what people believe. I think most who know me know that I have never tried to "sell" Deism as a more viable belief structure than anyone else's. (and to your credit, I have never seen you trying to "sell" your beliefs either)
...and yes, I have always been interested in the bizarre concepts of Heaven and Hell and enjoy hearing about the many different theories on them. The thread was designed to get people like you and the other believers to put your two cents in. If that makes me a jerk who likes to hear myself talk ... than I spose there is little I can do about that.
Now, putting that tiresome matter behind us - on to your very interesting response ...
I have never heard of this theory that Jesus was around long before Mary. That makes the idea of the Trinity even more confusing and confounding than it already is. Where did Jesus come from than? How can he and the father be ONE in the same? It was hard enough grappling with that when Jesus had an origin. I would like to know more about this theory cause it is definitely new to me. Which is a rare thing indeed.
Regarding Hell being empty and Heaven being nearly void. Can you elaborate a bit more? Are you saying that there are 100 billion souls or so waiting for judgement or are you saying that souls have already gone to hell and died off? and whatever theory you hold to - do you have a Biblical backing for this? Also, are you saying that all souls, regardless of their 'final destination' are in a holding pattern together? As in the same location?
perhaps I forgot my smileys, anyways.
OK here's the theory. In the beginining There was God, the word (logos - messenger), and the power (Holy Spirit) or represented later the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God having a messenger would explain the supposed contradiction of Jesus saying no one has ever seen God, and Moses getting delivered the message face to face. Now this should simplify the trinity for you, and it is in congruence with the immutability of God and the trinity. There were three, one of those three (the messenger) came to deliver the word to us and he was to be called Jesus because he was to save his people from sin. That's all plenty scriptural.
The second part is far more confusing. I'll express my belief and not comment on to what percentage that applies, but I feel all of my fellow worshipers feel the same way if they've thought about it at all. I believe prior to Jesus, there was a definitive concept of Sheol from Judaism. It's a waiting room of sorts for boh the good and bad. Jesus clearly states that dying is like sleep and the Spirit rests supporting the Christian mortalist view. I believe the following:
1-The soul is not inheritly immortal (that's platonic influence and coutner scripture)
2-When we die, with a few exceptions most of us probably either remain at rest (sleep) in the grave or go to Sheol.
3-Then upon the second ressurection we are judged and Go to either heaven or cast into the fires.
I can't say whether Jesus took those souls prior to his sacrifice are still in Sheol, or they went to the place of the saint in heaven, but I feel they were there at one point.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
I voted more in hell, as the scriptures say that few will enter the gates of righteousness. As for when souls will be in heaven or hell is a debate that will last till Christ's return and then and only then will we know the truth of this matter. Like everyone I have an opinion on this but do not have time to explain right now, I will tomorrow, maybe.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(June 15, 2011 at 5:46 pm)Cinjin Wrote: Insightful as always Paladin.
Let me ask you this?
What do you know or have you heard about the souls of those that perished before JC died on the cross. Specifically, what explanation have you received from Christians regarding the plight of people who never had the chance to learn of god's redemption??
I have of course heard of one explanation/apology for this, but I would like to get your take on it.
Thank you. And to the best of my knowledge, the Bible says little about what happened to those who died before Jesus died on the cross (aside from Matthew's brief comment about the dead saint zombies). Clearly, the NT regards some of those who came before Jesus were "righteous". During Jesus' transfiguration he was seen with Elijah and Moses. So evidently, some where considered righteous before Jesus.
The common school of thought I've heard is that when Jesus died on the cross but before he rose again, he went to Hell and freed all the souls that he chose to save.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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