[split] Hitler had ulterior motives and really wasn't a Christian after all

[Shell B]

Hitler was raised a Christian but did not necessarily remain one. One needs to examine his modus operandi here. When he became Fuhrer he wanted complete control. He knew in order to achieve this that he would need the popular backing of the German people who were predominantly Christian. Hence his reason for invoking religion.

One only needs to examine the words of the man himself. When it comes to worldview and religion, examining a person's behavior means nothing. A religion or worldview is something you identify with enough to label yourself as such. Hitler labeled himself a Christian and never backed down on that. That is the end of the fucking story. Besides, he had enough political fodder to gain popular backing. Have you read nothing of his "rise" to power?

Which very neatly segued into the Jewish question too.

Baloney sandwich. What reason would he have for targeting Jews if he were not religious? If he were an atheist, for instance, he could have chosen nationality or class. Instead, he attacked a religion. Granted, it is a also a nationality, but he went for the religious side of it, for the most part.

So this was classic politicking on his part to ally the country with his vision.

Oh, really? Maybe it was what he actually believed. Otherwise, how do you explain his hatred?

Had the Church put up significant opposition to him, his tune would have changed.

No, he would have separated from the church and he would not have been the first ruler to separate from the popular church and then form his own.

So please let us not fall into the trap of assuming that he was Christian because he referenced it in a speech or there is a photo of him leaving a church. Means nothing. All he was ultimately concerned with was securing and maintaining absolute power. End of.

He didn't just reference it in speech and go to church. He was obsessed with religious artifacts. His men wore uniforms that made reference to god. He referenced it in Mein Kampf. He called himself a Christian. Let you not fall into the trap of deciding who is Christian and who isn't. If a guy came up to me wearing devil horns and spitting out pig's blood and told me he was a Christian, I would consider him a Christian.

No one is disputing his reference of Christianity.

You are disputing the veracity of his statements which were his own personal statements regarding his own beliefs and which are contrary to what you are trying to say here. Why do you even bother?

What I am suggesting is that there was an ulterior political motive at work here.

You must be a fundamentalist in disguise. Fundies hate it when a Christian is a bad guy.

The large body of evidence is rather ambiguous and contradictory which is why there is this eternal debate about his religious convictions.

No, this obnoxious debates rages on because religious people and deluded people don't like the idea of the boogeyman being Christian. Tough titty to them and you. He could have been a smurf for all I care, but he was not, he was a Christian.

And on the subject of Mein Kampf which sold more than ten million, all Hitler really cared about was the fact that it made him a millionaire. He couldn't care less whether anyone read it or not.

You're kidding, right? He didn't care if anyone read it? So, you are assuming that whilst he was in jail for a failed coup d'etat, he threw all of his effort into a book that he somehow foresaw would make him a millionaire? He just made it all up because his life's dream was to be a successful novelist?

Does that strike you as someone whose prouncements should be taken seriously ?

Listen, you can't follow up a load of assumptions about a dead man's motives that have no backing as far as the man's own claims are concerned with a question like that. Your fictional Hitler does not sound like someone who should be taken seriously. As it turns out, the real world Hitler was someone whose pronouncements should have been taken far more seriously than they were.

So my conclusion remains : he was only concerned with securing and maintaining absolute power. Everything else was superfluous to requirement.

Oh, I agree with you completely, but your "conclusion" has nothing to do with him being Christian. Also, your conclusion cannot be based on the religion issue as they are two separate matters. For example, I'm an atheist. Say all I care about is money. Does my lust for wealth cancel out my lack of belief in god? Obviously not.

[Tiberius]

One only needs to examine the words of the man himself. When it comes to worldview and religion, examining a person's behavior means nothing. A religion or worldview is something you identify with enough to label yourself as such. Hitler labeled himself a Christian and never backed down on that. That is the end of the fucking story. Besides, he had enough political fodder to gain popular backing. Have you read nothing of his "rise" to power?

I want to disagree here, not with the content of the argument (i.e. I do believe that Hitler was a Christian), but more with the form of the argument itself. There are plenty of examples of people hiding their true beliefs, and labeling themselves as another, in order to gain power, or to escape prosecution.

Salman Rushdie tried it in order to escape the fatwa that had been placed on him after the publication of The Satanic Verses.

And yes, he did eventually admit it was a lie, but the fact that Hitler didn't do this is irrelevant, given his relatively early death.

[reverendjeremiah]

Hitler was raised a Christian but did not necessarily remain one. One needs to examine his modus operandi here. When he became Fuhrer he wanted complete control. He knew in order to achieve this that he would need the popular backing of the German people who were predominantly Christian. Hence his reason for invoking religion. Which very neatly segued into the Jewish question too. So this was classic politicking on his part to ally the country with his vision. Had the Church put up significant opposition to him, his tune would have changed. So please let us not fall into the trap of assuming that he was Christian because he referenced it in a speech or there is a photo of him leaving a church. Means nothing. All he was ultimately concerned with was securing and maintaining absolute power. End of.

so...we are now supposed to assume he was atheist even though he has specifically said many times that he was a Christian?

What are you...Glenn Beck?

...all because you assume he wasnt a christian by using a quick and lame half assed reason?

Why not say he wasnt a true white man either, as no white man would ever become Hitler.

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No one is disputing his reference of Christianity. What I am suggesting is that there was an ulterior political motive at work here.

Citation needed

The large body of evidence is rather ambiguous and contradictory which is why there is this eternal debate about his religious convictions.

Citation needed

And on the subject of Mein Kampf which sold more than ten million, all Hitler really cared about was the fact that it made him a millionaire. He couldn't care less whether anyone read it or not. Does that strike you as someone whose prouncements should be taken seriously ?

Citation GREATLY FUCKING needed

So my conclusion remains : he was only concerned with securing and maintaining absolute power. Everything else was superfluous to requirement.

Your conclusion is weak and speculative.

[Minimalist]

At the end of the day all of this is merely a rehash of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

I personally cringe everytime Obama ends a speech with "god bless the united states of america." I think he is really far too smart to believe in such utter tripe and therefore think he is doing it just to shut up the dolts who believe in boogeymen. And, I have as much evidence as the OP for that point of view.

[Gawdzilla]

Hitler was raised a Christian but did not necessarily remain one. [Rationalizations to deny his religiosity deleted.

Yeah, sure.

[twocompulsive]

And on the subject of Mein Kampf which sold more than ten million, all Hitler really cared about was the fact that it made him a millionaire. He couldn't care less whether anyone read it or not.

You're kidding, right? He didn't care if anyone read it? So, you are assuming that whilst he was in jail for a failed coup d'etat, he threw all of his effort into a book that he somehow foresaw would make him a millionaire? He just made it all up because his life's dream was to be a successful novelist?

Some 10 million copies were sold by 1945, not counting the millions sold abroad, where Mein Kampf was translated into sixteen languages. How many people actually read it is unknown. For Hitler, it was of little importance. Having from the early 1920's described himself in official documents as a writer, he could well afford in 1933 to refuse his Reich Chancellor's salary [in contrast, he pointed out, to his predecessors] : Mein Kampf had made him a very rich man.

P 148 / Hitler - Ian Kershaw

[Rwandrall]

Even if he was not christian (which is totally was), what evidence do you have that he was an atheist ??

There is as much proof that he was an atheist that there is that he was a Muslim or Hindu...Oh, he was probably a buddhist, the swastika is a reverse buddhist symbol ! That is definite proof !


"Some 10 million copies were sold by 1945, not counting the millions sold abroad"

You mean people in a Nazi-controlled country bought a Nazi propaganda book ?? NO WAI

[Minimalist]

He couldn't care less whether anyone read it or not.

You do understand....I hope...that writers do not get rich from books which do not sell? In 1925 when it was published Hitler was 8 years away from becoming chancellor of Germany. It was only after that when sales of the book took off.

[Kayenneh]

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Hitler was raised a Christian but did not necessarily remain one. One needs to examine his modus operandi here. When he became Fuhrer he wanted complete control. He knew in order to achieve this that he would need the popular backing of the German people who were predominantly Christian. Hence his reason for invoking religion. Which very neatly segued into the Jewish question too. So this was classic politicking on his part to ally the country with his vision. Had the Church put up significant opposition to him, his tune would have changed. So please let us not fall into the trap of assuming that he was Christian because he referenced it in a speech or there is a photo of him leaving a church. Means nothing. All he was ultimately concerned with was securing and maintaining absolute power. End of.

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Does it really matter if he did it in the name of religion or not, since that's what people are doing nowadays anyway.. '-_-

[Epimethean]

"You do understand....I hope...that writers do not get rich from books which do not sell? In 1925 when it was published Hitler was 8 years away from becoming chancellor of Germany. It was only after that when sales of the book took off."


The old ex post facto. I tell you, he's not going to buy that line of reason.