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July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm (This post was last modified: July 13, 2011 at 1:44 pm by fr0d0.)
I wasn't trapping you... I was joking that I was trapping you. Now stop talking about it or I might have to KILL YOU! [Muslim joke ]
So are you saying the same as me/ Christians about God... that Allah is beyond understanding but we can know something about him from logical deduction?
Do you disagree with the article where the author says that to state like the scholar that Allah is unknowable and that we also know the exact will of Allah from the Quran is contradictory?
To me God's fundamental nature is knowable because God is the positive force. We know a lot about God, enough for faith to believe in him. We can't know everything, but that's different from saying he's unknowable.
I know Jesus personally yes. I know God personally. God's spirit works on me. I didn't see him magically. I know him from trusting what is recorded about him and putting that into practice. What is supposed to happen happens. It's way of seeing the world that is filled with positivity.
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I wasn't trapping you... I was joking that I was trapping you. Now stop talking about it or I might have to KILL YOU! [Muslim joke ]
Even if you kill me, I will come back to life and keep on talking about this until you say, "JESUS CHRIST!" [Christian joke ]
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: So are you saying the same as me/ Christians about God... that Allah is beyond understanding but we can know something about him from logical deduction?]
No, I didn't say anything about logical deduction.
What I said is that we only know what Allah has revealed about Himself (in the Quran), and among them, the most important ones are that He is One, Unique, and Eternal. That much we do know, or perhaps I should say, believe (as opposed to "know"). But again, we cannot know Allah Himself because our knowledge is very limited and thus we cannot understand Him from our own perspective.
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Do you disagree with the article where the author says that to state like the scholar that Allah is unknowable and that we also know the exact will of Allah from the Quran is contradictory?]
I already answered that question in the last two replies, which is, again, that Allah is beyond human comprehension (as quoted in the article). That, I'm not denying at all, fr0d0, because even in the Quran there is a verse which says, "No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things" (6:103).
What I don't agree with, however, is the argument that "Allah is unknowable and knowing the exact will of Allah is contradictory." This is what I don't agree with. Why? Because as I explained in this post, you can get messages from an unknown person behind a closed door, or behind a veil, and that's how it is possible to know what the person is telling us without needing to know anything about the person himself.
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: To me God's fundamental nature is knowable because God is the positive force.]
I think of Allah as a positive force, too, because He is the creator of the universe, life, human beings, animals, trees, food, and everything else that we see in nature. But to me, this doesn't imply that I know his fundamental nature because I cannot even imagine Allah even though I believe that He is the creator and that He is timeless. Furthermore, I also believe that Allah is the same thing as God except for the existence of different conceptions of Him (between Christians and Muslims) and for the use of different words to refer to Him (i.e. "God" and "Allah").
So, I could've been saying "God" instead of "Allah" in this whole thread, but I'm not doing that, because you and I have different conceptions of what is the nature of God (hence me saying "Allah" to mark the difference between our conceptions of Him).
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: We know a lot about God, enough for faith to believe in him.
You believe that you know a lot about God. Similarly, Muslims believe that they know some things about Allah while most of it cannot be known. In both cases, this is accepted as faith and not knowledge even though our beliefs may or may not be true. This is just a small (semantical) thing that I wanted to point out in regards to your comment above.
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: We can't know everything, but that's different from saying he's unknowable.
See above, and yes, Christians can't know everything about God, which is different from saying that he is unknowable. But, the question is what is it exactly that makes Him "knowable."
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I know Jesus personally yes. I know God personally.
Here, there are two sentences: One is using the word "Jesus" while the other one is using "God."
But if Jesus is 100% man and 100% God at the same time, as you've said in another thread, then what is the difference between the first sentence and the second sentence? Couldn't you write that in a single sentence?
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: God's spirit works on me. I didn't see him magically. I know him from trusting what is recorded about him and putting that into practice. What is supposed to happen happens. It's way of seeing the world that is filled with positivity.
I agree with you, and like I said before, I believe that Allah is also a positive force and His will is working on me and the rest of the universe as well. I don't know Him, but I believe in Him because of the complexity and beautiful things in nature. So, there isn't a difference in the conception of God between you and me in this regard, at least.
One more thing:
You were asking me whether I agree that "Allah is unknowable" and that "we still know the exact will of Allah from the Quran" are contradictory or not (which I already answered). So, I will now pose a similar question to you which is that, if you believe that the Bible is not the actual word of God, as you said in "The Christian God is NOT simple" thread (in this post), then, how is it possible that you know the exact will of God from the Bible?
^ I'm curious to know what is the answer to this. But thanks for discussing with me anyways.
Maybe Islam is more relevant to him. I hear everyone harping on about xtianity all the time, but the religion which I see all the time in my life is Islam.
July 14, 2011 at 2:43 pm (This post was last modified: July 14, 2011 at 2:43 pm by Epimethean.)
(July 14, 2011 at 2:35 pm)Napoleon Wrote: Maybe Islam is more relevant to him. I hear everyone harping on about xtianity all the time, but the religion which I see all the time in my life is Islam.
We hear more about christians here because the fuckers keep dropping by to proselytize. Islam just builds more fucking mosques everywhere. I despise them both equally, but at least here, the muslims have better manners.
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: So are you saying the same as me/ Christians about God... that Allah is beyond understanding but we can know something about him from logical deduction?]
No, I didn't say anything about logical deduction.
What I said is that we only know what Allah has revealed about Himself (in the Quran), and among them, the most important ones are that He is One, Unique, and Eternal. That much we do know, or perhaps I should say, believe (as opposed to "know"). But again, we cannot know Allah Himself because our knowledge is very limited and thus we cannot understand Him from our own perspective.
We can't 'fully' understand him you mean
So to you God revealed himself through the words where to me God is understood (in part) through recorded observation.
One, Unique, internal. Yep.. 3 ticks.
(just making notes here)
(July 14, 2011 at 7:18 am)Spider Wrote: What I don't agree with, however, is the argument that "Allah is unknowable and knowing the exact will of Allah is contradictory." This is what I don't agree with. Why? Because as I explained in this post, you can get messages from an unknown person behind a closed door, or behind a veil, and that's how it is possible to know what the person is telling us without needing to know anything about the person himself.
If you know a persons exact will from their very own word, surely you cannot then say that you can know nothing about that person? I've seen a small picture of you, but I have a very good idea about who you are from your very limited (in comparison to the amount of writing we have from Allah in the Quran) writings on this forum.
Something's got to give here surely?
(July 14, 2011 at 7:18 am)Spider Wrote:
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: To me God's fundamental nature is knowable because God is the positive force.]
I think of Allah as a positive force, too, because He is the creator of the universe, life, human beings, animals, trees, food, and everything else that we see in nature. But to me, this doesn't imply that I know his fundamental nature because I cannot even imagine Allah even though I believe that He is the creator and that He is timeless. Furthermore, I also believe that Allah is the same thing as God except for the existence of different conceptions of Him (between Christians and Muslims) and for the use of different words to refer to Him (i.e. "God" and "Allah").
So, I could've been saying "God" instead of "Allah" in this whole thread, but I'm not doing that, because you and I have different conceptions of what is the nature of God (hence me saying "Allah" to mark the difference between our conceptions of Him).
I think we're singing from the same songsheet when we talk about 'knowing'.
I think Allah is a very different being although rooted in the same origins. Allah is not all positive (taken from his 99 attributes), which I find incoherent with the positive force model. It's not that he isn't as evolved as the Christian God, which I think of as such because of his sacrificial act; it's because he is inconsistent when compared with the Judaic God.
(July 14, 2011 at 7:18 am)Spider Wrote:
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: We know a lot about God, enough for faith to believe in him.
You believe that you know a lot about God. Similarly, Muslims believe that they know some things about Allah while most of it cannot be known. In both cases, this is accepted as faith and not knowledge even though our beliefs may or may not be true. This is just a small (semantical) thing that I wanted to point out in regards to your comment above.
Agreed.
(July 14, 2011 at 7:18 am)Spider Wrote:
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: We can't know everything, but that's different from saying he's unknowable.
See above, and yes, Christians can't know everything about God, which is different from saying that he is unknowable. But, the question is what is it exactly that makes Him "knowable."
Are you saying that you don't know that the Quran is the word of God? Could you expand on that thread if you don't mind. Just interested to know more of your thinking there.
(July 14, 2011 at 7:18 am)Spider Wrote:
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I know Jesus personally yes. I know God personally.
Here, there are two sentences: One is using the word "Jesus" while the other one is using "God."
But if Jesus is 100% man and 100% God at the same time, as you've said in another thread, then what is the difference between the first sentence and the second sentence? Couldn't you write that in a single sentence?
*slaps Spider*
Jesus, God the father and the Holy Spirit are the three persons of the Godhead. One God, One being. In the second sentence I''m referring to God the father.
(July 14, 2011 at 7:18 am)Spider Wrote:
(July 13, 2011 at 1:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: God's spirit works on me. I didn't see him magically. I know him from trusting what is recorded about him and putting that into practice. What is supposed to happen happens. It's way of seeing the world that is filled with positivity.
I agree with you, and like I said before, I believe that Allah is also a positive force and His will is working on me and the rest of the universe as well. I don't know Him, but I believe in Him because of the complexity and beautiful things in nature. So, there isn't a difference in the conception of God between you and me in this regard, at least.
Complexity is no reason at all for belief. It's simply a way of looking at reality. Another person could say the opposite and have just as strong a reason for disbelief.
And like I said above, I don't find Allah to be positive.
(July 14, 2011 at 7:18 am)Spider Wrote: One more thing:
You were asking me whether I agree that "Allah is unknowable" and that "we still know the exact will of Allah from the Quran" are contradictory or not (which I already answered). So, I will now pose a similar question to you which is that, if you believe that the Bible is not the actual word of God, as you said in "The Christian God is NOT simple" thread (in this post), then, how is it possible that you know the exact will of God from the Bible?
^ I'm curious to know what is the answer to this. But thanks for discussing with me anyways.
No that's correct. Christians believe that the bible is inspired by God. Humans wrote it about God. Some Christians believe it to be inerrant. I believe it to be potentially errant. Catholics, who's ancestors dfecided on the books to be included in the bible, have a much looser idea about that.
I don't know the exact word of God, but I can pretty accurately know his nature from those descriptions. Like you say, it can't be exhaustive. But it's enough to serve the purpose intended.
(July 14, 2011 at 2:43 pm)Epimethean Wrote: I despise them both equally, but at least here, the muslims have better manners.
There were a few Muslims who did have unpleasant manners, and they got banned within a short time, but you will probably see pretty much the same attitude from them as the Christians if more of them posted here. Some are good (like me), some are okay, some are kind of annoying, and some are very offensive. Muslims have a range of character just like everyone else, but you won't see a lot of the better Muslims especially in an atheist forum, I suppose. The same thing with Christians. But, people can have good manners or bad manners even regardless of their religious beliefs.
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