Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 8:08 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
#21
RE: Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
(July 12, 2011 at 12:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I said faith is the only way belief in God is possible, considering the Christian position. Therefore arguments for material existence don't address that subject.

This sounds like the argument from nonoverlapping magisteria to me, which some scientists make from the other point of view, obviously.

So if I said I had faith in talking unicorns as benevolent, all-powerful beings, science could say nothing about whether they exist or not? Would you then have to accept my faith in unicorns as perfectly logical? "Faith" can make it acceptable (and untouchable) to believe in anything at all if science has to step back and not challenge such theories about spiritual or mythical creatures. As humans we no longer worship the sun and the sky and everything else as deities but people once did. Should we accept those beliefs as well and say that science can't for sure tell us whether a god abides in the sun because someone has (or had) faith in him? What makes the Christian god any different? How is not a scientific question that a human being was born of a virgin or that the said human ascended on the third day after his death? It either happened, thus breaking what we know about how people are born and die, or it didn't happen. How is not a scientific question that a god made the physical world and now apparently intervenes in millions of people's lives? So no, if God is real, I don't think we should be able to come to think this is true solely on faith. He either works in our physical world and in people's lives and there should in theory be some way to discover this, or he doesn't. If it's the latter, he's completely irrelevant. If it's the former and there is no way to discover this in theory, he is capricious at best and totally random at worst, thus rendering him far from being worthy of our worship or contemplation.
Our Daily Train blog at jeremystyron.com

---
We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot

"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir

"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
---
Reply
#22
RE: Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
You define faith as "something you pick as a belief without thought" Everything. That's not Xtian faith, which is actually based on information, that you give assention to; trust and act upon. It's not illogical. It has coherant structure.

If science can challenge something, it will. No one is stopping it. When it can't challenge something, it should stay silent, or state it's abstinance. Or we'd get a reversal of creationism in the classroom. That is just as unhelpful.

All that God's disprovability demonstrates is the fulility of using the scientific method to understand him. If you want to think about material origins, use the correct tool.


Reply
#23
RE: Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
If the idea or concept or whathaveyou of such a creature cannot be understood by means of any tool of man that tests the empirical world, why would anyone want to waste time pretending to "know" it, and, further, how the hell did two massive books get written down through some sort of intelligible communication system between it and man?

Swing yer pardner to and fro,
Round we go, do si do.
Trying to update my sig ...
Reply
#24
RE: Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
Why, yes.
Reply
#25
RE: Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
To me the best argument for deity is the existence of creationists. Only infinite timeless malevolence armed with powers unconstrained by any material limitation can mock humanity with such carictures of human intellect.

Were it not for Satan, creationists won't exist.
Reply
#26
RE: Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
I was raised christian. One day, after a discussion with a friend, I decided to really define why I believed, what reasons had I etc. After a long hard search, I found none, and promptly became an atheist, much to the chagrin of my family and delight of my friends. So in answer to your question, I don't think there is a best argument.
[Image: bloodyheretic.png]

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Einstein

When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down happy. They told me I didn't understand the assignment. I told them they didn't understand life.

- John Lennon
Reply
#27
RE: Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
(July 13, 2011 at 3:53 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Strange I posted a reply to this 8 hours ago. Shegone!

Agrh, I hate when that happens Smile You should install the 'Lazarus - Form Recovery' extension for Chrome or Firefox, it saves text forms to a clipboard so you only have to select the one you previously typed - I don't know how many times it's saved my ass from having to re-write long posts Wink

fr0d0 Wrote:I would call that misplaced faith. Belief is based on false premise in those cases.

So what belief wouldn't you consider faith? It seems to me that you're just using belief and faith as synonyms... What is the difference?

fr0d0 Wrote:Belief in God is the most positive and productive world view.

Wait, you think the best argument for God is that people can subjectively find it positive? Frankly I couldn't care less, it has nothing to do with an argument for the truth of the claim - I know tons of people in the Psychedelic community who believe in reincarnation, I'll guarantee you their belief is just as 'positive' to them as your belief is to you. It's plainly obvious that our subjective feelings towards a proposition is not indicative of it's being a metaphysical reality, were we to accept it as a line of evidence we would rather quickly find ourselves drowned in contradictory and mutually exclusive conclusions.

How exactly is your belief in God 'productive'?

fr0d0 Wrote:As we cannot know the answer to prayer the study of it is also absurd.

Would you say that people who pray to be healed are more likely to be healed? If so we can very much test that claim, we can test any claim that posits some physical manifestation - A great many theists have made specifically that claim and the studies to show the results consistently fail. If you don't make the same claim then that's fine, but you don't get to be the arbiter of theistic claims and decide that any investigation at all is absurd, it all depends entirely on the claim being made.

fr0d0 Wrote:Fine tuning then from a purely material POV. Correctly abstaining from teleology. But the subject of the thread is to propose a best argument for the existence of a deity??

You consistently raise this "material POV' line, what exactly is it you mean by this?

I gave what I find to be the best argument for a deity, the argument that to me up-shifts the probability of a deity existing more than any other. I am aware of no argument for which the existence of a deity is that likely given the alternatives which are, all but inflation (and to a lesser extent Brane Theory), entirely unsupported empirically - This is why to me the fine-tuning argument is uniquely positioned to support the possibility of a deity being the cause. I also fail to see what any of this has to do with a "material POV".
.
Reply
#28
RE: Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
"Material POV" is a pavlovian reaction for a great many theists in any discussion about god. You'll be disappointed.

Its a very long winded form of special pleading.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#29
RE: Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
VOID Wrote:Are you using faith and belief as synonyms? If that is the case I have to reject your notion.

Always do, there being no difference between them. And confidence and trust. The question is not if there is a difference between faith/confidence/trust/belief... it is simply 'how much' faith/confidence/trust/belief one has in something.

Many people use faith alternately as God(s)-specific beliefs or belief in spite of a lack of evidence obtained by the scientific method. I don't bother Smile

Quote:When I say I believe in Metaphysical Naturalism I am saying that I believe Metaphysical Naturalism is the position that is most likely true given the available evidence, I will defend the position intellectually as a tentative truth until such time as I am persuaded otherwise. I don't know if you would consider that my having 'faith' in metaphysical naturalism, it to me lacks substantial parts of what makes something 'faith', having a trust in or personal connection with that which you believe.

So you don't believe in Metaphysical Naturalism... you accept it as a working explanation. You are waiting for a better one because it does not click right with you Smile

Quote:Also, you already know I think your definition of knowledge is useless so what is it you mean when you say "Without faith, you cannot know"? Because to me faith is absolutely irrelevant in determining whether or not something you believe counts as your having knowledge of that thing.

I seriously question how it changes one's knowledge in a thing to have that knowledge be correct or not. It's the same method, it's the same process, it's the same object... only difference is that one boils down to not be correct and the other quite so. Or rather never correct Thinking

Quote:Interesting idea You should try make a syllogism out of it.

I think Brane theory or computer simulation theory are in the same general league of absurdity as God If the 'Dark Flow' hypothesis turns out to be correct however I will have to upshift the probability of Brane Theory substantially.

No... not really. Brane theory is presented in such a way that it might be given some credence simply because of the big words used that make it sound somewhat credible. And a computer simulation seems too sensible to me: I practically live in the things as it is.

Too much work to make it inductive... me not smart enough methinks.

Quote:So someone who said such a thing is a potential cause of the universe! That is after all markedly absurd.

Indeed. The seagulls were playing with me today though... Playing. With. Me. I was throwing rocks at them, and they were having fun dodging them. And then I was having fun throwing them too.

This universe is so absurd. I still hate pigeons.
(July 13, 2011 at 3:57 pm)Epimethean Wrote: "Belief in God is the most positive and productive world view."

Interestingly, it is also the most negative and destructive world view, so it comes up zed.

The most destructive worldview is mine without enjoying helping others and doing hard work. If I did not obtain some satisfaction from being benevolent... you should be afraid.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
Reply
#30
RE: Atheists, what do you believe is the best argument for the existence of a deity?
Hmm, the best argument for the existence of a deity would have to be the way things work outside of the Earth, as we have a great deal of the of the Earth explained satisfactorily. The amazing suspension of celestial bodies in space and the way they interact with one another. For example, the way a star with outlying planets is a self cleaning oven. It exists for long enough to nurture whatever is there and then purges it all. However, this is simply a good argument to me because it is incomprehensible. This is much like what leads believers to believe, so I am slightly embarrassed to admit it, no offense. I do realize that certain things like gravity, anti gravity and the various workings of energy make most of what I just said possible, but I'm still pretty wowed by it all.

The reasons it still doesn't work:

1. Just because something is currently or personally incomprehensible, does not mean it is not explainable by some means outside of human grasp, in the future or already explained.

2. My being awestruck isn't a good argument. I am awestruck by worthless, cool-looking rocks.

3. Just because the universe/multiverse does a good job of being what it is, doesn't mean something made it that way. That idea basically places a preconceived notion in place of the unexplainable.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  What do you believe in that hasnt been proven to exist? goombah111 197 23506 March 5, 2021 at 6:47 am
Last Post: arewethereyet
  Are miracles evidence of the existence of God? ido 74 3912 July 24, 2020 at 12:59 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  10 Syllogistic arguments for Gods existence Otangelo 84 10506 January 14, 2020 at 5:59 pm
Last Post: Abaddon_ire
  Why you all need others, to believe? LastPoet 24 3722 December 26, 2019 at 10:09 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Ways to Get Into Heaven! Or Whatever You Believe in! Jade-Green Stone 14 2499 January 24, 2019 at 2:54 pm
Last Post: deanabiepepler
  Quantum Physics Proves God’s Existence blue grey brain 15 1829 January 2, 2019 at 11:08 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Why are you chasing the idea of the existence of a God? WinterHold 26 3219 August 7, 2018 at 2:05 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  11-Year-Old College Grad Wants to Pursue Astrophysics to Prove God’s Existence Foxaèr 49 6641 August 2, 2018 at 4:51 pm
Last Post: GUBU
  Do I believe Atheists are going to hell? Mystic 292 39957 February 3, 2018 at 1:09 am
Last Post: haig
  Look i don't really care if you believe or don't believe Ronia 20 7743 August 25, 2017 at 4:28 am
Last Post: ignoramus



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)