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Quote: (Today 06:39)Godschild Wrote: Man you sure wasted a lot of time with your nonsense, please try to spend it more wisely. I know you were trying to make a joke of innocence but you did not, only made yourself look... well silly. Innocence as in "not guilty." Also how is it that the Tree of Life was off limits, God told Adam that only the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was off limits. The reason God took the Tree of Life from the Garden of Eden was so that man would not have to live eternally in sin. Who told you that we were paying for the sin of disobedience by Adam and Eve, this is not the case, we are responsible only for our sin and no one else sin. When Adam and Eve sinned against God it brought the nature of sin into this world and thus gave all of mankind the ability to sin, so you are responsible for your sin and I'm responsible for my sin and unforgiven sin is why one winds up in hell. Forgiveness only comes through the Son of God "our Christ" and is available to everyone who desires it.
Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Quote:Posted by Doubting Thomas
I believe even the Catholic church states that the Adam & Eve story is allegorical...
Yet, if the story of Adam and Eve were allegorical, and Adam is the cause of sin coming into the world, why then would Jesus have died to take away the worlds sins that were only here because of Adam's transgression in the garden?
I agree with the observation that the whole of the creation epic including the creation of sin is silly. While it is true that without that Christianity doesn't work.
The Satanist Anton LaVey was famous for having said, the Devil is the best friend the church ever had. He's kept them in business all these years.
So true. As long as people can be led to believe they're unworthy of the love of god for being born sinners, they'll strive to overcome that deficit in order to appease the god that made them so. And those who teach how that's done, afford themselves as the ministers of understanding the way, lead people to believe god need be worshiped and feared in order for the faithful to be in keeping with what it means to be wise and honor god, churches will always be a conduit between the damned and salvation.
What a lot of Christians fail to realize, when they argue that god is perfect and not at all like what he's described as being in the Bible, and that he's not responsible for sin coming into the world. He's not responsible for the fall of man from grace, is that god, being a supreme all knowing ever present all powerful creator of all things, made everything that is come to pass.
Through Adam sin was let to come into the world. But what would sin be if it wasn't for god's ordaining it so? Sin is that what is an offense against god. And yet, how can someone offend a supreme being that knows everything before it's to come to pass? And to offend the creator in the first place is to accept the creator created an imperfect being in mankind, which is impossible for a perfect immutable supreme being to do, save by it's will to do so.
Of course what's being argued here is man made fiction. Authored and compiled by different councils over the years many centuries past, so as to coral the sheep who believe it all to be true and officiate over them so that they feel their human nature is something to be ashamed and afraid of, less one offend the god that created imperfect humans in the beginning and their nature in the first place.
Imagine how free Christians would be if they did not first believe god does not approve of who they are.
Psalm 51:5 (KJV)
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
It's like unto the abused child scenario. The child thinks there's something wrong with them that causes their parent(s) to make them suffer so. And so the child, in order to atone for whatever it is they may do to offend their parent, cleave unto that parent in the hopes their striving to do their very best will please them so they no longer hurt the child.
But it never works. Because the problem is not with the child. The problem is that the parent is an abusive violent individual and the child is simply an excuse for that cowardice to show itself.
Sin would not exist if not for god's will making it so. And yet what are Christians really saving themselves from and for, if not that universal parent, cop, judge?
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
"In life you can never be too kind or too fair; everyone you meet is carrying a heavy load. When you go through your day expressing kindness and courtesy to all you meet, you leave behind a feeling of warmth and good cheer, and you help alleviate the burdens everyone is struggling with."
Brian Tracy
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
[/quote]
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged Me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things (Isaiah 45:5-7 NIV) context please and disaster and calamity are translations also and that would just be judgement.
"Its not what your looking at that matters, its what you see." -Henry David Thoreau
♪Oh, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get Lost in my mind Lost in my Mind Yes, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get lost I get lost Oh, I get♪ -The Head and the Heart
"You are wise, witty and wonderful, but you spend too much time reading this sort of stuff.”- Frank Crane
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.
Young's literal translation. Take your namby pamby NISV back to liberal land.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(July 19, 2011 at 7:44 pm)annatar Wrote: So, are you saying god screwed over and over before he came up with the crucifixion idea? Or those stories didn't actually occurred? If so, the question is not addressing you, coz I need someone who believes those thins as real.
God is timeless - he knew the whole plot outside of time. Some stories are not of actual events, no. The bible comprises many styles.
So can god interfere the world? If he can, than he didn't knew the whole plot.. If not he is not omnipotent... Here is a dilemma for you to deal with...
And by the way, If god knew all the things that will be, and haven't done anything, that makes him evil. As I said, sometimes doing nothing is the most terrible crime...
Quote:
(July 19, 2011 at 7:44 pm)annatar Wrote: And the idea of everyone is sinner is pure bullshit. I don't know how you define sin but I've never harmed anyone directly or indirectly. If you think wanking is a sin, suit yourself...
Your wanking is ok by me annatar. Please don't get hung up on that.
So... you are a perfect being? Congratulations on that.
Thank you frodo, its such a relief to hear your consent..
What one should or should not do to live sinless life then? You said everyone is a sinner so you ought to know what constitutes a sin. Please tell us!!
No I am not perfect, but I've never done anything that would require atonement. And If I did such thing, it would be my responsibility and someone dying for me would not undo it.. Your idea of atonement doesn't make any sense in that way, and it leads people to think they are not responsible for their actions once saved, and also lead them to create absurd sins such as wanking because they think everyone have to be sinner. Couldn't find anything that can be count as "sin", they create stupid types of sins...
So as I said, I am not perfect and crucifixion of Jesus does not make me one.
Quote:Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.
July 21, 2011 at 12:51 am (This post was last modified: July 21, 2011 at 12:52 am by Judas BentHer.)
(July 20, 2011 at 6:10 pm)C Rod Wrote: I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged Me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things (Isaiah 45:5-7 NIV) context please and disaster and calamity are translations also and that would just be judgement.
Ah, the "C" word. Funny how context is never used when Christians cite the Old Testament Leviticus as a reason to prevent gays from having lawful equal rights to straights. Or when any passage can be used as an excuse to oppress any one or any community or any faith, in a Fundy's sights. They simply cite a scriptural passage, point at their victim and say; it's not me! It's god's word.
However, even as an atheist I gotta say that if we're to believe there is such a thing as god then I'd think when god says it, I'd believe it. If I believed a god could speak.
RE: King James Version
Proverbs 16:4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Lamentations 3:37-39
Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Jeremiah 18:9-11
And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Ezekiel 20:24-26
Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.
Evil god!
Or, not.
Errant perfect supreme beings can be so confusing when they decide to write a book and then contradict themselves.
RE:King James Version
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Context! Right?
"In life you can never be too kind or too fair; everyone you meet is carrying a heavy load. When you go through your day expressing kindness and courtesy to all you meet, you leave behind a feeling of warmth and good cheer, and you help alleviate the burdens everyone is struggling with."
Brian Tracy
July 21, 2011 at 3:02 am (This post was last modified: July 21, 2011 at 3:02 am by Kayenneh.)
(July 20, 2011 at 3:24 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
[quote='Kayenneh' pid='155800' dateline='1311101662']
I can't agree with you on this one, Frodo. Sin is such a biased concept, totally dependent on opinion. If there is no "normal" and "right" to compare to, how can we be flawed? We are what we are and must make the most of it, but there is no way that the human being can be standardized. Of course you are free to think of yourself as a sinner, if you feel like it, but don't put that tag on everyone else.
You're saying we're flawed using other words.
We are what we are.
I'd appreciate if you didn't put your words in my mouth.
"We are what we are", I said. Do you actually read "flawed"? For this I did not write, nor did I mean it. Just because out molecular make-up is different form one and another, just because we come from different socio-cultural backgrounds, just because we like to compare ourselves to other people and feel smug and superior when we think we are better, it doesn't make the other one flawed. My opinion on a flawed human? A child born with genetic deficiencies that he can't breath, walk, eat or in any other way take care of himself, but to a loving parent he might be the most perfect child in the world. Take care Frodo, with your outlook on on this matter, no-one can become anything else than bitter.
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura
July 21, 2011 at 6:30 am (This post was last modified: July 21, 2011 at 7:08 am by Godscreated.)
(July 20, 2011 at 3:31 am)annatar Wrote:
(July 20, 2011 at 2:39 am)Godschild Wrote:
(July 19, 2011 at 7:44 pm)annatar Wrote:
(July 19, 2011 at 4:08 am)Godschild Wrote: {hide]Annatar, your friend was telling you the truth about original sin. No all the events before Christ had to be, the flood removed all the people from the face of the earth so that God could start anew with mankind, they had become so evil there was no hope for humanity unless God destroyed them and started over with Noah and his family. I could go on about Abraham, the nation of Israel formed in Egypt, the Exodus and ect. but it would be a wall of text and many here would be sure to let me know it. What God did was to work through history to bring His Son into this world at the appropriate time so the Gospel of Jesus could be spread throughout the world. Like your friend told you we are not responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve, however that sin brought the ability for all to sin into this creation and the innocence of man was lost, so now we are held accountable for our own sins and no one elses, with Jesus as our savior we have the hope to escape our sin but only if we believe.[/hide]
If I remember correctly, god had to be all powerful right? So how come there was no other way than destroying every soul in the world including innocent children?? And remember, It was not their fault to be such sinners, It was because they were cursed by their ancestors (Adam and Eve not apes). So he killed all those people just to make things go according to his plan? Damn, its more idiotic than I thought.. And you're saying that the guy who came up with those ideas, also created the whole universe??
I asked this question, because I wanted to demonstrate how stupid you sound when you try to explain it. Thank you Godschild for proving my point...
That was not you stated point and since you do not care to understand then why have us waste so much time on your petty joke.
Well well well, don't get too mad now.. It's not that I don't care to understand, it's just I understand quite clearly but you seem to struggle understanding how your logic fails when you try to explain it. So my question was not a joke, but your answer kinda was... My question was kind a rhetorical question to demonstrate how silly your idea of original sin was. I knew you'd came up with something like that, but I didn't expect you would say "all the things before Christ had to be and there was no other way" that was really bullshit, even by the theists standards. You practically said god made all those people suffer so that he can bring his son into earth on exact time he foretold he would. Nevertheless, I answered your reply, and explained how your logic fails, so it would be nice to hear something about my answer, and not just some complains..
I'm not mad, why would you think that? You do not understand, I do not struggle with my understanding of scriptures and I've never tried to explain my logic. You asked the question not to learn but to make light of what christians believe, so why should I take you seriously, you give me no reason to.
God made no one suffer they brought that upon themselves, there is a price to be paid for unrepented sin. Yes all the events had to happen before Christ came, God saw the future and knew the perfect time to place Christ in history, God did not make the future mankind has made this world into what it is, we have abused the freewill God gave us, so history is what it is, you my friend just as I am are a part of this messed up world and we both have contributed to it, I have asked forgiveness for my part and God through His grace has forgiven me, what about you....
(July 20, 2011 at 4:54 pm)Judas BentHer Wrote:
Quote: (Today 06:39)Godschild Wrote: Man you sure wasted a lot of time with your nonsense, please try to spend it more wisely. I know you were trying to make a joke of innocence but you did not, only made yourself look... well silly. Innocence as in "not guilty." Also how is it that the Tree of Life was off limits, God told Adam that only the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was off limits. The reason God took the Tree of Life from the Garden of Eden was so that man would not have to live eternally in sin. Who told you that we were paying for the sin of disobedience by Adam and Eve, this is not the case, we are responsible only for our sin and no one else sin. When Adam and Eve sinned against God it brought the nature of sin into this world and thus gave all of mankind the ability to sin, so you are responsible for your sin and I'm responsible for my sin and unforgiven sin is why one winds up in hell. Forgiveness only comes through the Son of God "our Christ" and is available to everyone who desires it.
JBH Wrote:Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I do believe you have proven what I said, thank you. You think this verse says that you will pay for the sin of Adam, your wrong you pay for your sin only. You sure have an upside-down way of looking at scripture. You are trying to blame God for your sin, man up and accept that what you do is of your own making through the freewill of your life,
Quote:Posted by Doubting Thomas
I believe even the Catholic church states that the Adam & Eve story is allegorical...
Yet, if the story of Adam and Eve were allegorical, and Adam is the cause of sin coming into the world, why then would Jesus have died to take away the worlds sins that were only here because of Adam's transgression in the garden?
I agree with the observation that the whole of the creation epic including the creation of sin is silly. While it is true that without that Christianity doesn't work.
The Satanist Anton LaVey was famous for having said, the Devil is the best friend the church ever had. He's kept them in business all these years.
So true. As long as people can be led to believe they're unworthy of the love of god for being born sinners, they'll strive to overcome that deficit in order to appease the god that made them so. And those who teach how that's done, afford themselves as the ministers of understanding the way, lead people to believe god need be worshiped and feared in order for the faithful to be in keeping with what it means to be wise and honor god, churches will always be a conduit between the damned and salvation.
What a lot of Christians fail to realize, when they argue that god is perfect and not at all like what he's described as being in the Bible, and that he's not responsible for sin coming into the world. He's not responsible for the fall of man from grace, is that god, being a supreme all knowing ever present all powerful creator of all things, made everything that is come to pass.
Through Adam sin was let to come into the world. But what would sin be if it wasn't for god's ordaining it so? Sin is that what is an offense against god. And yet, how can someone offend a supreme being that knows everything before it's to come to pass? And to offend the creator in the first place is to accept the creator created an imperfect being in mankind, which is impossible for a perfect immutable supreme being to do, save by it's will to do so.
Of course what's being argued here is man made fiction. Authored and compiled by different councils over the years many centuries past, so as to coral the sheep who believe it all to be true and officiate over them so that they feel their human nature is something to be ashamed and afraid of, less one offend the god that created imperfect humans in the beginning and their nature in the first place.
Imagine how free Christians would be if they did not first believe god does not approve of who they are.
Psalm 51:5 (KJV)
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
It's like unto the abused child scenario. The child thinks there's something wrong with them that causes their parent(s) to make them suffer so. And so the child, in order to atone for whatever it is they may do to offend their parent, cleave unto that parent in the hopes their striving to do their very best will please them so they no longer hurt the child.
But it never works. Because the problem is not with the child. The problem is that the parent is an abusive violent individual and the child is simply an excuse for that cowardice to show itself.
Sin would not exist if not for god's will making it so. And yet what are Christians really saving themselves from and for, if not that universal parent, cop, judge?
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(July 20, 2011 at 6:28 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.
Young's literal translation. Take your namby pamby NISV back to liberal land.
I've gone over this verse and it's interpretation in another post with AnyMouse, C Rod is correct in the interpretation. I use the New American Standard and it basicly says the same thing, the NAS is generally accepted as the best translation we have to date. The word "evil" is not a literal translation, calamaity is the proper translation.
(July 20, 2011 at 3:36 am)Kayenneh Wrote:
(July 20, 2011 at 3:31 am)annatar Wrote: Well well well, don't get too mad now.. It's not that I don't care to understand, it's just I understand quite clearly but you seem to struggle understanding how your logic fails when you try to explain it. So my question was not a joke, but your answer kinda was... I knew you'd came up with something like that, but I didn't expect you would say "all the things before Christ had to be and there was no other way" that was really bullshit, even by the theists standards. You practically said god made all those people suffer so that he can bring his son into earth on exact time he foretold he would. Nevertheless, I answered your reply, and explained how your logic fails, so it would be good to hear something about my answer, and not just some complains..
It is like those crazy e.g. firemen, who set buildings on fire, just to be the first one on scene and hailed as a hero.. '-_-
If that's directed at me I'm not looking to be a hero, as a matter of fact I'm far from it, I'm here to learn and you guys give me a lot of opportunity do do that thank you..... Godschild
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(July 21, 2011 at 6:30 am)Godschild Wrote: If that's directed at me I'm not looking to be a hero, as a matter of fact I'm far from it, I'm here to learn and you guys give me a lot of opportunity do do that thank you..... Godschild
Nope, it was directed at your fictional god.
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura
July 21, 2011 at 12:50 pm (This post was last modified: July 21, 2011 at 12:51 pm by Welsh cake.)
(July 21, 2011 at 6:30 am)Godschild Wrote: You asked the question not to learn but to make light of what christians believe, so why should I take you seriously, you give me no reason to.
As a Christian you have every reason to!
Quote:"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him."
If the Christian God is real and the consequences of sin are real our souls are in jeopardy of hellfire. Your god requires you to reprove us of our sin, yet you're so disinterested and doing a piss-poor job quite frankly. I personally don't know, and never have known, any god to exist in reality. If you know something we don't and you, having an ounce of compassion or empathy for your fellow man are obligated to do everything in your power to save as many as possible for future kingdom.
You are making yourself out to be quite the hypocrite GC, here I am, an atheist, a former-Christian, telling you what you what your duty is, what you're supposed to believe and profess in.
Unless of course your real purpose for squatting here on this thread acting all smug as the elect is simply to "store up wrath" against us for the coming day of judgement, which would make you an even bigger arsehole than the god of the Bible, and very few have that claim, regardless of what you believe hopefully that is not the case with you GC.
Quote:God made no one suffer they brought that upon themselves,
Upon that we can both agree, no god anywhere has done anything to cause suffering.
Quote:there is a price to be paid for unrepented sin.
). So he killed all those people just to make things go according to his plan? Damn, its more idiotic than I thought.. And you're saying that the guy who came up with those ideas, also created the whole universe?? 
