Save Jesus from Murder

[Minimalist]

Quirky.
God had to kill himself to save faulty humans from himself, because he loves us.

What a fuckhead. Now we know where his followers get it from!

[davart9]

Hello there, this is only my second post here and I don't have a clear idea of how many christians hang around these parts so this could end up being completely irrelevant. Advanced apologies if that scenario plays true.

I've never received a straight answer on this from a christian. They either go out of their way to qualify a yes with a no, or say 'it would be against god's plan' and stop at that. Maybe I'll get some insight from some ex-christians here at the very least.

If you were present and capable of saving Jesus from his crucifixion - or at least capable of attempting, knowing all you know about the man, that he's your savior - would you try to save him from his fate? And just so it's clear, the question isn't about whether or not it's against god's will or plan, the question is would you save a man from murder that you consider your savior and reason for being?

Of course, this is obviously asked from a strictly christian perspective. But to set the record straight, as an atheist with absolutely no affinity towards Jesus, the answer is crystal clear to me. I'd save the man in a heart beat. So why is it that christians struggle so much in coming up with an answer for this one? Is it selfishness? Would they let the man they consider responsible for their 'salvation' die in order to receive said salvation?

Also, apologies if there's already a thread around here similar to this. I did search for it but came up with nothing.

what was wrong with the response "it would be against gods plan"? And Peter did try to save Jesus when he was captured but Jesus stopped him. Also anyone closely associated with Jesus at the time would have known because of the countless confessions from their saviors mouth that his whole purpose for being made human was to be murdered...i mean Jesus told judas to go and turn him in to be captured and judged and crucified and then he waited in the same spot for judas to come back with the guards? Pretty obvious that it was going down inevitably. So as far as a "straight" answer goes...i dont think thats what your looking for. I think you want a bone head lack of thought response from a lazy christian to all your bone head lack of thought questions... so you and all the other ppl on here can mock it. stop trying to pretend like you know or understand the complexities of gods thought process and choices or compare his to those of something that he made (humans). whether its true or not, if your gonna argue against the christians view of god then do it fairly... and that is that he is infinitely more complex and intelligent then us so thus having anything that you have ever questioned factored in lol

[BethK]

Yes the plan was perfect, it came from the perfect mind of God, yes there would be forums like this because this perfect plan will only work if freewill is envolved.

But, if God wanted people to accept Jesus as their saviour, an omniscient God would have known that there are some people who will not believe something on "blind faith" without evidence. Yes, it's been shown here before that faith cannot require proof, or it becomes science rather than faith, but I'll avoid that question and use "accept Christ".

There is no objective evidence that Yeshua bar Josef ever existed, much less that he was the biological child of the Holy Spirit with a betrothed virgin. There is no evidence that Jesus was God, or the son of God, or the nephew of God, or the third cousin twice removed of God.

Yes, there are stories of him going around making obscure references and performing miracles. These would be somewhat compelling except that 1) None of the accounts were written by eye witnesses. They were written about 2 generations later. 2) The accounts do not agree with each other. 3) Where they do agree, they seem to have copied from each other. 4) Some of the events listed to not agree with what is written about Roman Law and Roman custom of the time. 5) There are no records of anyone like Jesus of Nazareth or Yeshua bar Josef being tried or executed on any charge. The Romans kept as good of records as the IRS.

The other thing that makes these stories of miracles less than compelling for Jesus being the son of God is that there are numerous stories of other heroes and holy men and gods performing identical miracles within a couple of centuries of 1 C.E. There is as good of a case for Mithras or Hercules as there is for Jesus.

Certainly, if Jesus did represent an omnipotent God who had a plan to save all of human kind through their belief in Jesus, some sort of compelling evidence should exist. It doesn't. Not unless you count hard-sales like the door-to-door proseletyzing types or the hard-sales of "accept Jesus NOW or you will go to Hell (with vivid description)", or the guilt-trip one "Accept Jesus and send me money or God will take me to heaven." I've found that anything that needs to be hard-sold is not worth having - whether it's a religion, a used car, life insurance, or multi-level marketing products.

The plan was perfect and thus the timing had to be perfect, Christ himself said on the cross it is finished, I would think that He most of all would have known when to finish His work.

Perfect for whom?

The fear factor you mentioned must be your own fear, christians see what Christ did as an incredible act of love.

I see a lot of feeling sorry for Jesus and not a lot of desire to emulate him or follow his teachings.

Or, I see a lot of sadistic voyeurism involved with the whole "Passion of Christ" thing. See the box office revenues from the whole "Singing Jesus" or "Sexy Jesus" or "Bloody Jesus" . Hint: "The Passion of the Christ" is the bloodiest movie ever made, and one of the most successful.

I You should study the Bible from beginning to end and I do not mean just read through it, get a good study Bible, I suggest the New American Standard it's generally accepted as the best translation and The New Strong's Concordance would be helpful also.

Most atheists have. And, studied it without someone guiding us in just what parts to study or what parts not to bother reading. Such as the part about selling your daughter into slavery, the part about Abraham and Sarah lying to get into Egypt and mislead the Pharaoh into having sex with her (they told the Egyptians they were brother and sister), the part about it being GOD who creates evil, or on and on.

Some began as Christians studying the Bible as we were told, but just got a little too curious about what was in the Bible, and read it ourselves besides what we were being told about in class. Ah, but it was the whole thing about Eve being curious about that one tree that got her led astray. God obviously meant to design mindless sheep, and curiosity and intelligence are clearly a design flaw, as we say in engineering.

[Godscreated]

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Hello there, this is only my second post here and I don't have a clear idea of how many christians hang around these parts so this could end up being completely irrelevant. Advanced apologies if that scenario plays true.

I've never received a straight answer on this from a christian. They either go out of their way to qualify a yes with a no, or say 'it would be against god's plan' and stop at that. Maybe I'll get some insight from some ex-christians here at the very least.

If you were present and capable of saving Jesus from his crucifixion - or at least capable of attempting, knowing all you know about the man, that he's your savior - would you try to save him from his fate? And just so it's clear, the question isn't about whether or not it's against god's will or plan, the question is would you save a man from murder that you consider your savior and reason for being?

Of course, this is obviously asked from a strictly christian perspective. But to set the record straight, as an atheist with absolutely no affinity towards Jesus, the answer is crystal clear to me. I'd save the man in a heart beat. So why is it that christians struggle so much in coming up with an answer for this one? Is it selfishness? Would they let the man they consider responsible for their 'salvation' die in order to receive said salvation?

Also, apologies if there's already a thread around here similar to this. I did search for it but came up with nothing.

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Hope you find this answer to your satisfaction, first of all you are talking about time travel to the past and that's impossible so I could not if I desired to. But let's look at this as from the point you asked the question from. No I would not, why, because knowing all that I do of why Jesus died for me it would be an act of selfishness, to do what you suggest would be to make myself look and feel good, I would be depriving others of salvation not to mention my self. Who am I to interfer with what God has decided to do for mankind. Jesus explained to his disciples that He would be crucified and when the time came they did not try and stop it and neither would you, you as all others would have been shaking in your sandals as the Romans crucified Him, believe what you like, but the truth is you would not have, for the fear of your own life. Besides to be murdered ones life must be taken when one is unwilling to die, Jesus on the other hand said that he was willingly giving His life " no one takes My life I willingly give it in love for mankind." So you see I do not struggle with your question, I accept what Christ has done for myself and all of mankind.

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So the salvation of others is more important than the life of your savior. Admirably by your book, at least. It's not satisfactory though. I find your sense of altruism intriguing but ultimately false. Looking good has nothing to do with respecting all human life. Has your boy taught you nothing? Who exactly would you be trying to look good for, anyhow? Also, you seem like you're projecting fairly hard when you question whether or not I or anyone else would be capable of making an attempt to interfere with his execution. If it's not within you to try and save a life from an unjust end, simply state that. Don't assume the rest of us are cowards. I realize the act of sacrificing one for the supposed good of the rest is deeply embedded within you as a christian, but it's not just one we're talking about here. It's your savior/martyr. It's the man you believe to have faced a gruesome, prolonged murder when he was simply trying to spread truth. Would a man such as Jesus be unable to find a better way, a more enlightening and less emotional/fear driven way to display his love for 'us'? Surely in your eyes there would've been benefits to Jesus having a few more days in his life at the very least.

I mean, maybe he could've put this plan back in the cooker for awhile and discussed the recipe with his father one more time. Surely it should've been the perfect plan, no? But if it were perfect, would forums like these exist?

Kudos for having the balls to give me a first straight answer.

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Without Christ's death there is no salvation and as far as Christ needing to rethink the plan... well let's see, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent and eternity in which to use these seems to conclude that there was only one way and that would be what took place. You need to stick to the parameters you gave me to answer the question, I was not to use God's will yet you questioned His will, stay within your own rules. Yes the plan was perfect, it came from the perfect mind of God, yes there would be forums like this because this perfect plan will only work if freewill is envolved.
Looking good for no one person, I said it would be a selfish act which implies me mostly. No one there tried to save Him, I wonder why, they were afraid of the Roman soldiers and rightly so, they would have found themselves hanging on a cross too, you are no braver than those who were there and besides your thinking in todays thoughts not in the time of Roman terror. Law today and law in that time are far different, apparently more than you can imagine.
This is your statement "it's your saviour/martyr," now if I'm not mistaken to be a martyr one must die for a cause, if Christ had not died He could not have been my saviour/martyr now could He. The plan was perfect and thus the timing had to be perfect, Christ himself said on the cross it is finished, I would think that He most of all would have known when to finish His work. From the time of Abraham to the birth of Christ one sect of people (Israelites) had an enlightened way, the Law of Moses and they failed completely, so no there was no enlightening the human race. The fear factor you mentioned must be your own fear, christians see what Christ did as an incredible act of love. I bet you believe you came up with an original question, this is a topic that was discussed in my church many years ago and everyone there would give you the same answer, why, because we have studied the Bible intensely and understand what God had to do and why. You should study the Bible from beginning to end and I do not mean just read through it, get a good study Bible, I suggest the New American Standard it's generally accepted as the best translation and The New Strong's Concordance would be helpful also.

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So many assumptions in this post. A response for most of it isn't even worth my time. But I will say this: Your cowardice is certainly showing in full. "I nor anyone actually present at his crucifixion have a backbone thus would/did do nothing and you wouldn't either." - Biggest load of bullshit you could possibly bring to the table.

No assumptions on my part, plenty on your's. I would give my life for my belief in Christ, for what He has done for me I'll never deny Him.

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well let's see, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent and eternity in which to use these seems to conclude that there was only one way and that would be what took place.

He's omnipotent. He can do anything he wants. Why does he need to sacrifice an incarnation of himself in order to do so if he can do anything?

Because of one thing you do not understand, God's love for mankind.

[Godscreated]

[quote='Godschild' pid='161267' dateline='1312403752']
Yes the plan was perfect, it came from the perfect mind of God, yes there would be forums like this because this perfect plan will only work if freewill is envolved.

But, if God wanted people to accept Jesus as their saviour, an omniscient God would have known that there are some people who will not believe something on "blind faith" without evidence. Yes, it's been shown here before that faith cannot require proof, or it becomes science rather than faith, but I'll avoid that question and use "accept Christ".

There is no objective evidence that Yeshua bar Josef ever existed, much less that he was the biological child of the Holy Spirit with a betrothed virgin. There is no evidence that Jesus was God, or the son of God, or the nephew of God, or the third cousin twice removed of God.

Yes, there are stories of him going around making obscure references and performing miracles. These would be somewhat compelling except that 1) None of the accounts were written by eye witnesses. They were written about 2 generations later. 2) The accounts do not agree with each other. 3) Where they do agree, they seem to have copied from each other. 4) Some of the events listed to not agree with what is written about Roman Law and Roman custom of the time. 5) There are no records of anyone like Jesus of Nazareth or Yeshua bar Josef being tried or executed on any charge. The Romans kept as good of records as the IRS.

The other thing that makes these stories of miracles less than compelling for Jesus being the son of God is that there are numerous stories of other heroes and holy men and gods performing identical miracles within a couple of centuries of 1 C.E. There is as good of a case for Mithras or Hercules as there is for Jesus.

Certainly, if Jesus did represent an omnipotent God who had a plan to save all of human kind through their belief in Jesus, some sort of compelling evidence should exist. It doesn't. Not unless you count hard-sales like the door-to-door proseletyzing types or the hard-sales of "accept Jesus NOW or you will go to Hell (with vivid description)", or the guilt-trip one "Accept Jesus and send me money or God will take me to heaven." I've found that anything that needs to be hard-sold is not worth having - whether it's a religion, a used car, life insurance, or multi-level marketing products.

As you said above faith has no proof. As for the Romans I have no doubt that they keep excellent records, the problem is getting them through time and what the Empire went through that would be impossible, so that should put this point of argument to rest. I do believe in evangelizing, I do not think it proper to put on the hard sale as you say, telling the gospel of Christ and backing it up with the OT is proper, the OT is all that the disciples had besides their eyewittness testimony.
If the case for Mithras and Hercules was as good then why are not millions worshiping them. Yes God knew many would not take Christ on faith, but He still made the sacrifice and the offer of salvation to all.

The plan was perfect and thus the timing had to be perfect, Christ himself said on the cross it is finished, I would think that He most of all would have known when to finish His work.

Perfect for whom?

Perfect for the world.

The fear factor you mentioned must be your own fear, christians see what Christ did as an incredible act of love.

I see a lot of feeling sorry for Jesus and not a lot of desire to emulate him or follow his teachings.

Or, I see a lot of sadistic voyeurism involved with the whole "Passion of Christ" thing. See the box office revenues from the whole "Singing Jesus" or "Sexy Jesus" or "Bloody Jesus" . Hint: "The Passion of the Christ" is the bloodiest movie ever made, and one of the most successful.

Yes it was a very bloody movie, however according to scripture the real thing was worse. Portraying something as real as possible is not wrong, the movie Saving Private Ryan was not a pertty sight either, but according to men that were on the beaches of D-Day the move was fairly realistic.
I do not know to many people that feel sorry for Jesus, I do know a lot of people that feel guilty about their part in His death. You are correct many christians do not emulate Christ, I struggle with that to often myself. I do have the priviledge of knowing some that do live very Godly lives.

I You should study the Bible from beginning to end and I do not mean just read through it, get a good study Bible, I suggest the New American Standard it's generally accepted as the best translation and The New Strong's Concordance would be helpful also.

Most atheists have. And, studied it without someone guiding us in just what parts to study or what parts not to bother reading. Such as the part about selling your daughter into slavery, the part about Abraham and Sarah lying to get into Egypt and mislead the Pharaoh into having sex with her (they told the Egyptians they were brother and sister), the part about it being GOD who creates evil, or on and on.

Some began as Christians studying the Bible as we were told, but just got a little too curious about what was in the Bible, and read it ourselves besides what we were being told about in class. Ah, but it was the whole thing about Eve being curious about that one tree that got her led astray. God obviously meant to design mindless sheep, and curiosity and intelligence are clearly a design flaw, as we say in engineering.

The entire Bible is to be studied not just select passages and that goes for both christians and atheists who wish to show they made an honest attempt at learning the truths of scripture. Cherry picking through the Bible is an unjust way for one to represent therself as truth seekers. As for the events you mention God has never tried to white wash His chosen people, He always shows them in their true light as bad as it may be. No where in scriptures does it say God created evil, this is why I said to get a better translation, one like the New American Standard, this translation is seen as the best we have by most people. Why did you not ask for someone to explain the parts you found to be distasteful?

[Emanuel]

Killing a person, regardless of the circumstance, is necessarily murder (the killing of a person).

I'd save convicted felons any day of the week... especially if I could add them to my power.

Actually, murder applies only to illegal killing. Murder is not merely "the killing of a person" but the "unlawful killing of a person". One cannot say that a criminal that receives the death sentence is "murdered" by the authorities. He is being killed, not murdered.

Yes, it's been shown here before that faith cannot require proof, or it becomes science rather than faith, but I'll avoid that question and use "accept Christ".

What is Faith?

[The Grand Nudger]

I wish everyone who ever makes the statement "I would give my life for christ", would just get on with it already. There would be a far less noisy world in the wake of that event.

[Godscreated]

I wish everyone who ever makes the statement "I would give my life for christ", would just get on with it already. There would be a far less noisy world in the wake of that event.

Seems you dislike loyalty, why is that my friend?

[The Grand Nudger]

I love loyalty in a dog. Anyone willing to give their life to a myth had no regard for it in the first place. People don't fall on their swords for bullshit. Anyone who advocates for people to do so is sick. Anyone who lies to people to make it seem honorable to do so is sick. Anyone who misrepresents the truth in such a way as would lead a person to do so is sick.

People continue to believe foolish things and act upon those foolish beliefs in foolish ways. A constant reminder that we are all very gullible, and that people take advantage of that. You are one such con man GC. So good luck with the good word.

[Judas BentHer]

...Because of one thing you do not understand, God's love for mankind.

You are absolutely correct.

I can not understand how the countless murders orchestrated by god, or committed by him directly, is proof of love.
It's proof he loves to kill people. It's proof those left alive can excuse that wholesale murder and say of it; well, he's god and since he created it he can destroy it so that doesn't equate murder!

I can not understand how a god created imperfect humans that omniscience knew would disappoint, and then called that disappointment and the human nature that is prone to making mistakes and disappointing a perfect higher consciousness, would choose to hold those humans accountable for being exactly what they were made to do by the creator that chose to make them disappointing. By calling their mistakes sins and appointing their destiny for finite errors unto infinite suffering in a fiery pit of his creation.

I don't understand how love lets the world suffer as those sinners of his creation by will alone, until god decides to become human, minister a new testament to the Jews who were the bullies, the murderers, the rapists, the thieves, by proxy through the will and command of god throughout the old testament,so that his chosen people would renounce him for blasphemy, a sin, so that god would achieve his destiny being tortured and nailed to a cross so as to hang there as a message to the world that it was so because after all those millennia, he decided he would forgive humans for being imperfect and disappointing him, if only they'd see his murder on a cross as proof he loves them now, if only they'll accept that is proof of love so that their god made sinful human nature would still remain, but they'd be forgiven for it by his deed.

When they weren't permitted to avoid it all together by his will to create them in the beginning, perfect and thus unable to disappoint the all knowing watcher of all that exists as his creation.

Because as it stands, on the record, for a supreme consciousness to create a being that is destined to disappoint omniscience, after having been created in the image and likeness of omnipotence, it makes for a horrific testament to love, when all that ensued after Genesis 1 & 2 was chaos, murder, slavery, rape, genocide, patricide, matricide, infanticide, plagues and the drowning of the world. All because it was deemed necessary by god, to bring his creation into line under his authority as supreme judge of the sinful behaviors that necessitated those aforementioned campaigns in reprisal and so as to insure his dominion as the only god, upon the earth he created bearing humans that would then dare imagine other god's to exist.

I watched a movie once, "Joshua", wherein the lead character Joshua was the returned Jesus, as a typical man, a carpenter, come to immerse himself in the 20th century culture of a small town.
Of course no one knew he was Yeshua, which translates to Joshua, and so he with all his miracles that he worked as what appeared to be a simple man, was challenged by the local parish Priest.
So much so that Joshua was called to Rome, to answer for his acts in that small town. The Priest accusing him hefted a Bible aloft and asked Joshua what did he think this was? Implying that Joshua's behaviors, which included raising a man from the dead, and his teachings were not Biblical.
And Joshua replied to that question as to what he thought the Bible was; a love letter.

In today's world people have very different ideas of what love is. A woman who's beaten by her husband, when asked why does she stay and suffer so? Will answer, because I love him.

So there are a great many interpretations of what love means, and they all are a reflection of what the person defining and defending love, as to what that person believes they deserve in the name of love.
When that woman who's beaten by her husband says she loves him still, she's saying she loves him that beats her, bloodies her lip, blackens her eye, is intent on beating her to death with every blow of his fists, because men are stronger than women especially when enraged and their victim is cowed and begging it to stop. When he breaks her bones, knocks her unconscious, puts her in hospital ICU. She loves him.
And he loves her.

To the outsider that's not love. That's sadism, masochism, twisted abuse and bloody cowardice. It's dysfunction, mental illness, emotional withdrawal and terrorism.

So when you tell me, as I've read the Bible, that what I have to understand is god's love for mankind, I recall that bloodied battered woman. And I recall the scriptures describing all manner of slaughter, abuse, rape, terrorism, the drowning of the world. I recall the pardon the faithful give it claiming we earned it as sinners.

And I conclude that if all that is evidence of god's love for mankind, I'd wonder what his version of hate entails. But not for long. Because it's all a matter of perception and semantics.
Countless people have died and been martyred to the notion there can be only one god, when if there is only one, it's name and rituals dedicated to it are simply egoism and elitist petty differences surrounding semantics. But that's not considered, when the blood flows in the name of defending the one and it's image and likeness.

And when I read a terrorists diary, the Bible author inspired by the greatest terrorist in the universe or world history, imagined from the hearts of men to deserve worship and bloody sacrifice, and wars to establish it's monotheistic supremacy on earth, when all of that is a matter of faith and as such is defended as evidence of god's love for mankind, I pity you.

Because if that is love, as is understood, ordained and demonstrated by the creator of all understanding as to what love means, then there is either a glitch in supremacy of the unseen, or a fault in the consciousness of the believer in it, as to what love is. And as such it's again a matter of semantics.

For you it is love. Like unto that battered woman who takes her beating and loves her abuser during and after and for it. While those on the outside know in their understanding of love, that respect does not punch a wife's face in. Honor does not break the bones in her arms. Compassion does not blind her for the swelling behind the black bloody tissue that closes her eyes. And grace does not witness that and call it anything less than hate.

I shall admit the Bible implies every knee shall bend and every head shall bow. However, only amid those who think they deserve to be loved hated like that.

And remember, the next time god decides to exterminate the world for it's sins that shouldn't exist because he as Jesus died to take them away, he'll consume the world in flame.

Love doesn't promise to create infernos to consume the people god is in love with.
And self-respect doesn't argue that when it does, it's because we deserved it.