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The Argument From Design
RE: The Argument From Design
(August 6, 2011 at 3:49 am)fr0d0 Wrote: no amount of believing makes God provable by the scientific method.

There is no method that 'proves' god.

or have I missed something?



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








Reply
RE: The Argument From Design
Okay Frodo, I don't understand. Explain it to me without arguing for Deism and then asserting that this deity is Christ. Explain it to me without resorting to fallacies. Repeatedly stating that I do not understand does not explain your position. I understand that you believe any evidence of god would be against his nature. I'm not interested in what you believe about his nature. How many times have I said to others on this forum that I believe is not equal to it is? If there is a god, I want to have knowledge of that god. I'm a curious person. It doesn't matter to me who's description is closer to god, I'm not invested in this at all. I just want facts. Why do you insist the facts be in accordance with your beliefs? Why go so far as to say that there could be none, all the while stating that he is a fact? This is special pleading again. You want me to enact special rules for your concept of god, so that this concept can make "sense". You're demanding that your assumptions be taken as fact. Not only are you demanding they be taken at face value, you are implying that there is some reason to do so. Is the reason that I should accept your assumption as a fact, because your argument depends upon it? If this isn't the reason, then just tell me what the reason is. Don't waste your time telling me I don't understand. Is it surprising to you that I challenge these assumptions? Should we not ask questions like this? If not, why not?

I absolutely cannot stand it when people use the words "knowledge" and "faith" as though they are interchangeable. They are not. Imagine if a person kept using the word gift to describe a debt.
The idea that I'm trying to express here is simple. So what if your understanding of the god concept is not actually representative of the truth of the concept of god? Are we interested in the truth in this matter, or only those truths that would confirm your hypothesis? My entire argument, start to finish, consists of very little else.

There is very much that we do not know. God could be in this vast expanse of ignorance. That we do not know now, does not mean we never could. You seem to be implying to me that this entire line of research is closed, that the final word has been spoken on the matter. This is unsatisfying to me. It would be the only area of human knowledge then that is not open to review (let that sink in). This may be the case, but I have never been given reason to believe it to be so.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The Argument From Design
(August 5, 2011 at 6:32 pm)MinusGod Wrote: The fact that we eat and breath out of the same tube so we can potentially choke to death. Hey, thank God we invented the Heimlich maneuver though. No really, thanks a lot God.
http://creation.com/is-the-human-pharynx...y-designed

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RE: The Argument From Design
"When food or water enters the wrong tube (the trachea) it is not because the system is poorly designed, but it occasionally malfunctions because of abuse, such as eating while under the influence of alcohol or someone applying first aid incorrectly. People do not die because of a poorly designed pharynx, but rather because of its abuse or disease."

Classic plug for sinful indiscretion. Lovin it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: The Argument From Design
(August 6, 2011 at 1:26 pm)Emanuel Wrote:
(August 5, 2011 at 6:32 pm)MinusGod Wrote: The fact that we eat and breath out of the same tube so we can potentially choke to death. Hey, thank God we invented the Heimlich maneuver though. No really, thanks a lot God.
http://creation.com/is-the-human-pharynx...y-designed
I pointed out one potential problem with the pharynx. An inescapable fact that we can choke to death while eating. No matter how many useful aspects of the pharynx the article lists this one problem still remains. The question is could the human body in any way have been designed better? If so why didn't your God do this when he is capable of this?

I really don't even like these kind of arguments against God personally because they seem to be too subjective. What even denotes "intelligent design"? Where is the line? Maybe your god wanted us to have the possibility of choking to death. Given the idea of an afterlife we had to at least be designed incapable of living this life forever. That is, capable of dying. How optimal for living are we supposed to have been created?

Either way, if you believe that we were designed as is then you are ignoring a massive body of evidence showing that we and all other life evolved from common ancestry. Instead you've taken on a massive burden of trying to reconcile what we've learned through science with your dated beliefs by coming up with ad hoc rationalizations so that they fit what you've already concluded. Better you then me. Good luck.



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RE: The Argument From Design
(August 6, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: Explain it to me without resorting to fallacies.
Poisoning the well fallacy

(August 6, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: I understand that you believe any evidence of god would be against his nature.
Incorrect. I said only innapropriate evidence would be against his nature.

(August 6, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: I believe is not equal to it is?
Smack on.

(August 6, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: If there is a god, I want to have knowledge of that god.
Then you can't logically insist on innapropriate evidence as you keep doing.

Logical fail = logical fail.

(August 6, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: You're demanding that your assumptions be taken as fact.
Don't be silly. I've repeatedly reinforced the correct position can only be belief via faith as described.

(August 6, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: Is it surprising to you that I challenge these assumptions? Should we not ask questions like this? If not, why not?
No it's perfectly appropriate to challenge. You should listen though when someone tells you that you're barking up the wrong tree. That cat is up this tree over here! Stupid dog!

(August 6, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: I absolutely cannot stand it when people use the words "knowledge" and "faith" as though they are interchangeable.
Depends on definition... but I think the way you're using the words there I would agree with you. That said, you're willfully forcing your own interpretation of 'knowledge onto other people when they mean another definition of the word. Are you being deliberately obtuse or is it them tricking you?

(August 6, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: what if your understanding of the god concept is not actually representative of the truth of the concept of god? Are we interested in the truth in this matter, or only those truths that would confirm your hypothesis? My entire argument, start to finish, consists of very little else.
Your argument seems to be to promote scientism.

(August 6, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: There is very much that we do not know.
That's a grand claim from ignorance.

(August 6, 2011 at 9:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: God could be in this vast expanse of ignorance. That we do not know now, does not mean we never could. You seem to be implying to me that this entire line of research is closed, that the final word has been spoken on the matter. This is unsatisfying to me. It would be the only area of human knowledge then that is not open to review (let that sink in). This may be the case, but I have never been given reason to believe it to be so.
The subject isn't closed: It's pretty much nailed. That isn't to say that it couldn't be improved upon.. I'm well up for that. And like I've said to you before, I'm not about ignoring other religious endeavour. That isn't to say that I find those satisfying... but I acknowledge that they are honest explorations of the same subject.
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RE: The Argument From Design
(August 6, 2011 at 2:49 pm)MinusGod Wrote: I pointed out one potential problem with the pharynx. An inescapable fact that we can choke to death while eating.
Which is an extremely rare event. And not only this, but almost all choking is mainly due to human irresponsibility. Given this, one cannot put the guilt on the system.

You are also right. Even though there are numerous benefits, the problem still remains. But I say that it doesn't matter much, since the benefits far outweight the inconveniences.
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RE: The Argument From Design
Pointing out that an argument is fallacious isn't poisoning the well Frodo.
Why do you get to decide what evidence is inappropriate? This is special pleading.

Look, You are adding the provision to your argument that we cannot question it's premise. I don't know if you are doing this intentionally, or if you actually do not realize it. This is obviously very frustrating to me. I'm not arguing whether or not any given idea of god exists, I'm actually questioning whether or not god exists at all. I understand that you believe god to be beyond evidence. What I'm asking is whether or not this is true?

The major premise of your argument for the existence of god is that he exists as described. This is a very tight circle.



I also want to point out that simply conceding that human knowledge is fallible, and that we have reason to believe we are lacking in vast amounts of information is not an argument from ignorance unless I make a positive claim from that position. I do not. You are projecting your own position onto mine.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: The Argument From Design
I think you need to bone up on your fallacies Rhythm. You're committing abuse here.

You can too question it's premise! You just can't question it from a nonsensical angle like you're insisting. Go read what I said again... I didn't say that God was beyond evidence.

lol @ tight circle Big Grin

It's an argument from ignorance because you are doing what no respectable scientist would do to their beloved discipline : subjecting it to ridicule. The subject you're looking for is the one you've hidden from yourself. Stop being a fool and open your eyes.
Reply
RE: The Argument From Design
If I open my eyes, where should I aim them to see God?
Since when did pointing out the absurd consequences of someones argument fall out of favor in science?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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