I still don't understand why anyone would make up a person like the Biblical Christ..

[The Grand Nudger]

The idea that the writers had to shoehorn a real man into the narrative is a sort of atheist version of the "embarrassing details" argument. There are prophetic reasons (and mis-translations in prophecy) that explain this, more over there was no census. In looking for physical evidence of jesus we come up well below the bar. That's taking aside the fantastic. Hercules is a demi-god, and mythical, but Jesus, also a demi-god was historical? Even after removing all of the miracles it is still special pleading. When's the last time you heard a discussion about the historical Hercules? One set of rules for everyone elses myths, another for judeo-christianity?

[Minimalist]

Although it was written by David,

And you know this because......................................?

I guess I don't know that. I am an Atheist, but one who is struggling with his disbelief. I need more resources, in terms of counter apologetics, with regards to the New Testament. I've visited various websites, like Iron Chariots, but any books would help.

Dave, they shitwits have concocted an entire fairy tale "history" of Ancient Canaan. It seems, to be charitable about it, as if they have taken a much later religious cult and written it into the rather bare-bones history of the region.

The northern kingdom, known as Bit Humri ( House of Omri) to the Assyrians, or "Israel" to the rest of us shows archaeological evidence that it got going in the 9th century BC and became some sort of regional power...until the Assyrians overran it in the late 8th century.

The southern kingdom, known as Judah, and perhaps as the House of David (Bit Dawid) on the Tel Dan Stele which is Aramic, was a poverty stricken semi-desert region of goat and sheep herders until in the late 9th century. No one conquered it because it wasn't worth the effort. Archaeology shows that it began to grow and prosper as part of the Assyrian empire ( it was a vassal state) on the Arabian trade. This continued until the late 8th century when a revolt by Hezekiah ( archaeologically attested in an Assyrian inscription ) led the Assyrians to kick the shit out of the country. They recovered in the 7th century under Manesseh ( also archaeologically attested ) and were caught in the middle of a power-struggle between the Babylonians on one side and the Assyrians and Egyptians on the other. Apparently, they were on the wrong side. The Babylonians destroyed the city of Jerusalem early in the 6th century.

There is no archaeological evidence for the Patriarchs, for a bondage period in Egypt, for an Exodus, for a Conquest of Canaan nor for a Great Davidic Empire.
Zero. Zilch. Nada. I recommend you get a copy of Israel Finkelstein's "The Bible Unearthed" and William Dever's "Who Were The Early Israelites....."

Of course, the more archaeology trashes their fucking bible the more the shitwits play the Madeline Kahn role from Blazing Saddles!

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=maci89&s=7

---

Great stuff, D-P!

[popeyespappy]

Although it was written by David,

And you know this because......................................?

I guess I don't know that. I am an Atheist, but one who is struggling with his disbelief. I need more resources, in terms of counter apologetics, with regards to the New Testament. I've visited various websites, like Iron Chariots, but any books would help.

Dave, they shitwits have concocted an entire fairy tale "history" of Ancient Canaan. It seems, to be charitable about it, as if they have taken a much later religious cult and written it into the rather bare-bones history of the region.

The northern kingdom, known as Bit Humri ( House of Omri) to the Assyrians, or "Israel" to the rest of us shows archaeological evidence that it got going in the 9th century BC and became some sort of regional power...until the Assyrians overran it in the late 8th century.

The southern kingdom, known as Judah, and perhaps as the House of David (Bit Dawid) on the Tel Dan Stele which is Aramic, was a poverty stricken semi-desert region of goat and sheep herders until in the late 9th century. No one conquered it because it wasn't worth the effort. Archaeology shows that it began to grow and prosper as part of the Assyrian empire ( it was a vassal state) on the Arabian trade. This continued until the late 8th century when a revolt by Hezekiah ( archaeologically attested in an Assyrian inscription ) led the Assyrians to kick the shit out of the country. They recovered in the 7th century under Manesseh ( also archaeologically attested ) and were caught in the middle of a power-struggle between the Babylonians on one side and the Assyrians and Egyptians on the other. Apparently, they were on the wrong side. The Babylonians destroyed the city of Jerusalem early in the 6th century.

There is no archaeological evidence for the Patriarchs, for a bondage period in Egypt, for an Exodus, for a Conquest of Canaan nor for a Great Davidic Empire.
Zero. Zilch. Nada. I recommend you get a copy of Israel Finkelstein's "The Bible Unearthed" and William Dever's "Who Were The Early Israelites....."

Of course, the more archaeology trashes their fucking bible the more the shitwits play the Madeline Kahn role from Blazing Saddles!

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=maci89&s=7

^ This being the point.

If Yahweh didn’t create the Earth, sky, oceans, plants, animals and people; If there was no original sin, great flood, Exodus or conquest of Canaan; If he originated as just another god among the pantheon of gods of a small band of illiterate Bedouin goat herders; Then belief in Yahweh is no more legitimate than belief in Zeus or Odin.

If Yahweh isn’t God then belief in his son, born of a virgin, the same being yet separate is ignorant. Belief in his final profit is stupid. If the God of the Old Testament is false then the God of the New Testament and Quran are false. The God of the Old Testament is false. Therefore Judaism, Christianity and Islam are false.

[Captain Scarlet]

The idea that the writers had to shoehorn a real man into the narrative is a sort of atheist version of the "embarrassing details" argument. There are prophetic reasons (and mis-translations in prophecy) that explain this, more over there was no census. In looking for physical evidence of jesus we come up well below the bar. That's taking aside the fantastic. Hercules is a demi-god, and mythical, but Jesus, also a demi-god was historical? Even after removing all of the miracles it is still special pleading. When's the last time you heard a discussion about the historical Hercules? One set of rules for everyone elses myths, another for judeo-christianity?

Happily agree with all of that. Whether mythical figures existed or not Jesus, Hercules, socarates etc it will be hard now to get enough evidence either way, and thus we have to make up our own minds. I am willing to grant a historical Jesus as to me its a meaningless concession. A man is a man is a man and cannot also be a god nor perform miracles. The reason why it is unimportant as to whether Socrates actually existed or not was that there was no Divine claim and it's 'his' unique ideas that have been preserved over generations. The only reason Jesus has any notoriety is because of the divine claim, as there were plenty of other moralizing,
sermonizing apocalyptic Jews to pick from at that time. Take away his divinity and you are left with a popular version of one of those blokes with a sandwich board claiming the end of the world is nigh.

[DeistPaladin]

Belief in his final profit is stupid.

I definitely believe religious profits exist. They're very financially lucrative rackets. You can make big money with it.

Couldn't resist taking advantage of the typo to make a bad pun.

[Minimalist]

Belief in his final profit is stupid.

Stupid sums it up for me, Pap.

[dave4shmups]

Although it was written by David,

And you know this because......................................?

I guess I don't know that. I am an Atheist, but one who is struggling with his disbelief. I need more resources, in terms of counter apologetics, with regards to the New Testament. I've visited various websites, like Iron Chariots, but any books would help.

Dave, they shitwits have concocted an entire fairy tale "history" of Ancient Canaan. It seems, to be charitable about it, as if they have taken a much later religious cult and written it into the rather bare-bones history of the region.

The northern kingdom, known as Bit Humri ( House of Omri) to the Assyrians, or "Israel" to the rest of us shows archaeological evidence that it got going in the 9th century BC and became some sort of regional power...until the Assyrians overran it in the late 8th century.

The southern kingdom, known as Judah, and perhaps as the House of David (Bit Dawid) on the Tel Dan Stele which is Aramic, was a poverty stricken semi-desert region of goat and sheep herders until in the late 9th century. No one conquered it because it wasn't worth the effort. Archaeology shows that it began to grow and prosper as part of the Assyrian empire ( it was a vassal state) on the Arabian trade. This continued until the late 8th century when a revolt by Hezekiah ( archaeologically attested in an Assyrian inscription ) led the Assyrians to kick the shit out of the country. They recovered in the 7th century under Manesseh ( also archaeologically attested ) and were caught in the middle of a power-struggle between the Babylonians on one side and the Assyrians and Egyptians on the other. Apparently, they were on the wrong side. The Babylonians destroyed the city of Jerusalem early in the 6th century.

There is no archaeological evidence for the Patriarchs, for a bondage period in Egypt, for an Exodus, for a Conquest of Canaan nor for a Great Davidic Empire.
Zero. Zilch. Nada. I recommend you get a copy of Israel Finkelstein's "The Bible Unearthed" and William Dever's "Who Were The Early Israelites....."

Of course, the more archaeology trashes their fucking bible the more the shitwits play the Madeline Kahn role from Blazing Saddles!

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=maci89&s=7

---

Great stuff, D-P!

Gotcha. Thanks for the book recommendations! I've also heard that the NOVA show "The Bible's buried secrets" is very good.

[Minimalist]

Don't say I never gave you anything.










Based on the book....although I still think there is no substitute for reading the book.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I definitely believe religious profits exist.

Oh me too,and that they are fucking HUGE.


As for religious prophecy; I have yet to see any credible evidence of precognition, fortune telling,or prophecy of any kind.

You believe prophets exist? Want me to share your beliefs? No probs; simply name two and cite your evidence.

Though for today

If the ends do not justify the means, what on earth does? ( anonymous)

---

Based on the book....although I still think there is no substitute for reading the book.

Agreed Min.

I bought and read it on your recommendation on line; cost me about $14,including p&h. Glad I did,an excellent book.

http://www.bookdepository.com/


I've loaned it to a friend's daughter,who has recently come down with a quite nasty case of evangelical Christianity. A law/arts student too ,and perfectly rational otherwise

[Minimalist]

Glad you enjoyed it, Pad. The only place where I think Finkelstein goes off the tracks is his acceptance of the whole "Josiah story." There is no archaeological/historical record of such a king. It's a nice story but it really isn't necessary to the simple exercise in realpolitik which was going on.

Holding out "Josiah" as real is like saying that:

A) Ethelred the Unready
B) Alfred the Great
C) King Arthur
D) Edward the Confessor

all of these are real kings of Britain. Well....one only exists in story books.

Hope your friend's daughter comes to her senses before she wastes her life with such utter horseshit.