Quick Poll - Do you believe in God?

[Undeceived]

Yes, the disciples had no motivation or means with which to fabricate Jesus' life.

[KichigaiNeko]

So does this conclude our census of active theists on this board??

[DeistPaladin]

Yes, the disciples had no motivation or means with which to fabricate Jesus' life.

Who suggests that the disciples all got together and made up Jesus? Why is such a conspiracy necessary as the only alternative to the truth of Christian claims?

I think you need to talk to atheists more.

[genkaus]

Yes, the disciples had no motivation or means with which to fabricate Jesus' life.

Ofcourse they did. Starting a new religion would be the motivation and writing stories about miracles would be the means.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

So 137 atheists (as of my post here, including myself) and 19 people who need to grow out of their imaginary friend stage.

Not bad.

Personally, though, my lord and savior is Ceiling Cat and my beliefs about the afterlife can be summed up in the movie Beetlejuice.
Then again, when I was screaming at the neighbor's mice while shirtless this morning I've come to realize that that may be because I took Mickey Rooney's Crazy Pills ™ with my breakfast.
Still, the day is young and there are school children I need to use as kitten-throwing target practice.

[DeistPaladin]

Personally, though, my lord and savior is Ceiling Cat

I have a kitten that looks up at the ceiling and chirps to Ceiling Cat. He's like a Pentecostal kittah the way he squeeks and stares with such fascination whenever he sees reflected light he believes to be kittah angels.

[Undeceived]

Yes, the disciples had no motivation or means with which to fabricate Jesus' life.

Ofcourse they did. Starting a new religion would be the motivation and writing stories about miracles would be the means.

What was the motivation to start a new religion? They get no power or money, and all but one disciple was martyred. Christianity was so contradictory to Judaism that they might as well have been asking for executions. Their law forbids deception, and the punishment for blasphemy is death. Also, there wasn't enough time for a legend to form around Jesus. The writing of Paul's Corinthians places the explosion of new Christians within five years of Jesus' death. They would not have been convinced unless they at least thought something incredible happened (like a resurrection). And the disciples had no means to steal the body. The Romans were trained, practiced executioners. Jesus definitely died. And guards were sentenced to execution themselves if they let a prisoner go, so they would not have simply let the disciples into the tomb. They had no swords to fight their way in, and plotting on the Sabbath was against their moral law.

[thesummerqueen]

That's ridiculous.

Around that time there were many sects of Judaism, not just the four main observance levels that you see today. Christianity wasn't contradictory except for the fact that they were following a messiah that the rest of Judaism didn't follow - and there were a few of those jerk-offs running around at the time.

And legends can spread quickly, even in a time before the internet. And if you've got a martyr complex as large as the Jews did even 2000 years ago, believe me it can happen.

[Minimalist]

Who suggests that the disciples all got together and made up Jesus?

I predict a strawman argument.

[Undeceived]

That's ridiculous.

Around that time there were many sects of Judaism, not just the four main observance levels that you see today. Christianity wasn't contradictory except for the fact that they were following a messiah that the rest of Judaism didn't follow - and there were a few of those jerk-offs running around at the time.

And legends can spread quickly, even in a time before the internet. And if you've got a martyr complex as large as the Jews did even 2000 years ago, believe me it can happen.

I'd like a source for Judaism's 'sects.' To my knowledge, most of Israel was united under the same Law. The Samaritans were different, not believing the temple was required for sacrifice, and within the Jews were the Pharisees and Sadducees. But they all still followed Moses' Law, which Jesus fulfilled, and in their minds, repeatedly broke. He wasn't just a messiah. He claimed to be God-- blasphemy. He also did work on the Sabbath and told everyone that nearly all of their traditions were worthless. He said that you cannot be saved by your own actions after all, but have to believe in Him. The method of salvation was turned upside down. Nothing they did--tithing, circumcision, sacrifice--mattered any more. Social standings were destroyed. Judaism is night to Christianity's day.

You're savvy. I doubt you really believe a legend can form in five years. Thousands of people saw Jesus on Passover week (when all of Israel went to Jerusalem). If they were one of the few who didn't, they could talk to His disciples themselves or Mary. If you're to undergo a change in lifestyle (perhaps life-threatening) you're not going to make that decision on circumstantial evidence. They had the same skepticism and human psychology we have today. These people were so convinced they would die for Jesus. A.N. Sherwin-White of Oxford did a study of the rate at which legend accrued in the ancient world and concluded that not even two full generations was enough time for legend to develop and to wipe out a solid core of historical truth. Now compare the Bible to other historical documents. The earliest histories of Alexander the Great were written by Arrian and Plutarch more than four hundred years after his death. Yet they are still considered to be generally trustworthy, as are all of Plato's and Aristotle's works on similar time frames. People can be so quick to judge a book as fiction if they want it to be fiction, even though they have no evidence for their claim.