Unemployment. Honest debate.

[Anomalocaris]

Jesus christ man. Time to throw in the towel?

No, time to concentrate forces and pick the battles. We can no longer win everywhere, so we should carefully pick where we can win and invest where winning does us the most good. Dissipating such forces and capital that we have onto battles we have no real chance of winning just so we can keep a pointless presence in the field, so to keep people who fed are unable or refuse to redeploy to where they might genuinely do some net good, is stupid.

Employment comes naturally from being more efficient than your competitor, so the world beats a path to your door. It doesn't come from subsidizing inefficient industries and trades, so that everyone down stream has to pay more for the same ware than they really should.

[The Grand Nudger]

We subsidize extremely efficient industries as well. Actually, massive amounts of subsidies here in the states go to the largest and most efficient operations (speaking specifically about the Ag Sector). We still import a ton of food of course, not because our competitors are more efficient (they are demonstrably less efficient) but because we have greater purchasing power in countries that lack things like basic human rights or effective labor laws. I don't see how pumping money into the economies (read: personal accounts of tyrants) of these countries is a very good idea.

[paintpooper]

You guys are so off track. You are talking about fixing the current problems, by using the same system which is already broken. This thread was to expand and think about ideas that are outside what we currently are using. All this China VS US production/wages is getting us no where.

Still using competition... eliminate some competition. Use more automation. Build products with longevity in mind. Pay people a real living wage.
Why are there fucking 50 types of oil you can put in your car. Why not make one or two really bad ass oils? That is what I mean. 2321321 different brands of ketchup. Its ALL WASTE! It is corporations fighting against each other for the most profit, instead of delivering the best product to the people. This thinking requires a fundamental change in the status quo of how we do business.

[Anomalocaris]

We subsidize extremely efficient industries as well. Actually, massive amounts of subsidies here in the states go to the largest and most efficient operations (speaking specifically about the Ag Sector). We still import a ton of food of course, not because our competitors are more efficient (they are demonstrably less efficient) but because we have greater purchasing power in countries that lack things like basic human rights or effective labor laws. I don't see how pumping money into the economies (read: personal accounts of tyrants) of these countries is a very good idea.

The only reason why an industry would needs chronic subsidy is the value of what it produces is less than the true cost it incurs, so someone else has to spot it some more money for it to not go backrupt. By definition, an industry that can't survive without subsidies is not efficient in the overall economy, even if it is more efficient compare to the same industry in other countries. So even if American agriculture is more efficient than those of most other countries, it is still not an efficient places to invest available American capital.

You might look into Richardo's law of comparative advantages to see why:

1. Just because you do something better and more efficiently than everyone else, it doesn't mean it is efficient thing for your economy to do it, or invest in it, at the expense of other things you could be doing or investing in.

2. As a result, focusing on doing what is really the efficient for your economy is not a race to the bottom, contrary to the thrill and ignorant claims of the otherwise by those who would have us dissipate our resource by subsidizing all manners of inefficient industries and trades.

[The Grand Nudger]

You might want to look into corns importance to our economy relative to the unbelievable efficiency of the process and the amount of subsidy it receives. (Not a situation that I personally support, but it is there.) We might want to look at addressing waste and corruption and then reassessing our options at that moment. Rather than some heavy handed measure that would erase decades of precedent without any real desire to return to the days of yore. I don't think anyone here would argue that there isn't gross abuse of power and waste of resources going on at the moment, from the top down. The paths we might be able to take with those newly liberated funds might seem less bleak than handing the world over to China as though it were inevitable. I'm with Paint here, I don't think that we are currently equipped to deal with some of the issues we are capable of manufacturing (politically, economically, and legally)

[paintpooper]

It goes much deeper than just manufacturing and the economy. So many things in our lives are the way they are because of past decisions and past actions. What worked 100 or 200 years ago is not the same as today. We are a fundamentally different world today. Instant communication with any other human on the planet is an immense challenge that we now have as reality. Electoral College? WTF? Chads... paper ballots... counting by hand, give me a break. We could change the world but the powers at be see that as a risk to their empire and wealth. They do not care about the layman they are in a different world a world that revolves around them. At the end of the day we are all the same collection of cells that combined to create the homo sapien. All this "unreal" power and control is bogus. We are all free beings. Ones status in society should not make them artificially better than another person, it should be through our actions and how we conduct ourselves that show people who we are, not an arbitrary position at some company or government. They can not toy with our lives like it is nothing, my life is just as important as the presidents, even though society does not think that way. That is why I never understood war... all the money and resources to kill other humans just seems like a 100 waste of resources and it is. When you are taking revenge against killing x amount of people how is killing x + 1 people fix or accomplish anything but the subjective feeling of revenge, which has no real bearing in society, ie it produces nothing but a small feeling that fades fast. Call me a nut, call me stupid, but all this seems very rational to me, there is a force keeping the world from change, and the force is trying to keep the world exactly how it is, if not take it back a few steps.

[reverendjeremiah]

Fact#2 - Some estimates put Chinas unemployment at 10% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_...nd_welfare)

Fact#3 - China is a welfare/socialist state that guarentees employment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_...nd_welfare)

What do you personally think about the fact that one need but to check your assertions, from adjacent lines in the same thread no less, against each other to see how deeply, uhem, you've thought about these things, checked them out, sorted out the contradictions, and evaluated their implications?

For one thing..they arent my assertions, they are wikipedia's assertions. For another thing, its obvious you didnt read the article. And lastly, it flies in the face of your earlier post suggesting they are so much more efficient than America. They have "guarenteed labor" over there and still show unemployment shorts like America is.

To top it off, you suggested that everyone MUST play from the same economic rule book. How can this be true when China is receiving foreign aid and America isnt? On top of it, America is sending China aid and jobs.

Care to elaborate..or will you run away?

Oh yes..I evaluated the implications...you didnt.

I will..ahem..American corpoarations ship their companies over to China not because of efficiency, which you so naively suggest, but to avoid labor laws. In fact I would argue that most humans around the globe have the same potential for efficiency. Not all of them have the same labor protections. Thus, as is always the goal of a corporation, their profit margins skyrocket, while they rape civilization.

[The Grand Nudger]

while they rape civilization.

Or the lack thereof. Profit isn't snooty, it'll get in the dirt.

[reverendjeremiah]

while they rape civilization.

Or the lack thereof. Profit isn't snooty, it'll get in the dirt.

Profit and competition over who has the best smartphone is A-OKAY with me.

Profit and competition over food is what wild animals do.. we should be beyond that.

Chuck, obviously, agrees with the wild animals when it comes to not being able to compete means you dont eat.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think my final say on this will probably be to streamline government. Really sit down and decide where we can tighten the belt. Pump those resources into infrastructure and education. If we're going to have to spend a little time strapped for cash we may as well be doing work around the house and reading a few books. It would be hard to argue that dollars invested (borrowed or saved) in those two areas wouldn't show reasonable ROI.