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RE: Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?
March 27, 2009 at 10:06 am
(March 27, 2009 at 9:40 am)dagda Wrote: That is the problem with the bible; its the word of God writen by the hand of man and we screw up alot. There have been enough translations, copies, misunderstandings and passages writen on hersay that the original message could have concivably been don't buy time shares and we would not know. Even devout belivers should take the bible with a pinch of salt.
So if the bible is hogwash why believe in anything? You presumably are not a Christian?
Kyu
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RE: Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?
March 27, 2009 at 8:57 pm
(March 27, 2009 at 9:48 am)Giff Wrote: There are no god, it's a creation of peoples imagination.
Are you absolutely, 100%, without doubt that god is not real?
For the record, I'm an agnostic, and I believe that for all practical purposes god is not real.
However, since science is progressive and is continually evolving as new evidence comes out, does that mean we should be ready to change our beliefs if the evidence came out?
But back to the topic, the presence of evil in the world has no bearing on the existence of a god or gods. The presence of evil simply demonstrates that there is a presence of evil. And it would seem that if there were an omnipotent god, that he would be evil considering the amount of evil in the world.
So what we are disputing here is not the existence of god, but whether god is all-loving or downright evil.
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RE: Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?
March 28, 2009 at 2:51 am
(March 27, 2009 at 9:40 am)dagda Wrote: That is the problem with the bible; its the word of God writen by the hand of man
The burden of proof is with you. If you can provide ANY, I'll be thrilled to pieces and will immediately become a believer.
About contradictions: Just two examples which go together:The problems of evil and suffering.Neither are compatible with the Abrahamic god and the qualities with which he is ascribed.
There's a quote from Seneca I think,but I can't think of it off hand. To the effect that if god exists,he cannot possess those qualities. That certainly seems to be the case with the petty mountain God El,who became YHWH,Lord of the Universe. The Torah portrays him as petulant, jealous, petty,vindictive, cruel and unjust.
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RE: Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?
March 28, 2009 at 4:10 am
(March 28, 2009 at 2:51 am)padraic Wrote: If you can provide ANY, I'll be thrilled to pieces and will immediately become a believer.
Agreed ... I strongly suspect you'll be waiting a long, long time though so I hope you have lots of food in, LOL.
Kyu
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RE: Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?
March 28, 2009 at 7:15 am
(March 28, 2009 at 4:10 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: (March 28, 2009 at 2:51 am)padraic Wrote: If you can provide ANY, I'll be thrilled to pieces and will immediately become a believer.
Agreed ... I strongly suspect you'll be waiting a long, long time though so I hope you have lots of food in, LOL.
Kyu
As it turns out,I always have enough for about 3 months,perhaps double that if I'm frugal and eat my dogs. After that I'm pretty well stuffed. Seeing no proof has been found in-well,ever actually, I suspect 6 months may not be long enough----
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RE: Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?
March 28, 2009 at 7:35 am
(This post was last modified: March 28, 2009 at 7:39 am by Giff.)
(March 27, 2009 at 8:57 pm)athoughtfulman Wrote: (March 27, 2009 at 9:48 am)Giff Wrote: There are no god, it's a creation of peoples imagination.
Are you absolutely, 100%, without doubt that god is not real?
For the record, I'm an agnostic, and I believe that for all practical purposes god is not real.
However, since science is progressive and is continually evolving as new evidence comes out, does that mean we should be ready to change our beliefs if the evidence came out?
But back to the topic, the presence of evil in the world has no bearing on the existence of a god or gods. The presence of evil simply demonstrates that there is a presence of evil. And it would seem that if there were an omnipotent god, that he would be evil considering the amount of evil in the world.
So what we are disputing here is not the existence of god, but whether god is all-loving or downright evil.
Yes, I'm sure. There is no god, gods or higher power of any sort.
By the way change your religious view from "Agnostic Atheist" to just "Agnostic". You can't be both things.
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RE: Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?
March 28, 2009 at 10:31 am
(March 28, 2009 at 7:35 am)Giff Wrote: By the way change your religious view from "Agnostic Atheist" to just "Agnostic". You can't be both things.
Wrong. You can be an agnostic atheist or a gnostic atheist. An agnostic theist or a gnostic theist. A agnostic deist or a gnostic deist...
As a matter of fact it can be a stance on just about anything...
It's whether you claim to have absolute knowledge over something or not.
An agnostic atheist doesn't claim to absolutely 'KNOW' that there is no God...a gnostic atheist DOES. They both however - don't believe in God.
An agnostic THEIST does not claim to absolutely 'KNOW' that there IS a God. A gnostic theist DOES. They both however - DO believe in a theistic God...
An agnostic DEIST...etc, etc, and so on...
I am almost certain that there is no God. I am actually an agnostic but 'close to gnostic' - but I'm not really an actual gnostic because I still DON'T claim absolute knowledge to say that God definitely doesn't exist. I 'merely' say he's about as improbable as the flying spaghetti monster.
So I'm still technically agnostic about God. I don't claim absolute knowledge. This doesn't mean I'm 'unsure' however because I'm only as unsure about God's non-existence as I am unsure about the FSM's non-existence, Zeus's non-existence, the IPU, the tooth fairy, Santa, etc, etc.
EvF
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RE: Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?
March 28, 2009 at 5:20 pm
(March 28, 2009 at 7:35 am)Giff Wrote: By the way change your religious view from "Agnostic Atheist" to just "Agnostic". You can't be both things. A common mistake in definitions (even still made by atheists). I suggest this article: http://atheistblogger.com/2008/12/23/sca...certainty/ , mainly because I wrote it. I started trying to come up with an argument against agnosticism over atheism (because I thought agnosticism meant no opinion or "not sure"). However after reading various sources, including the essay by Thomas Huxley (the guy who invented the word) I found that the meaning of agnosticism has been lost in the public sphere over the years, but not in the academic sphere. Philosophers have never used the word agnostic in the "not sure" sense (at least nowhere I have read).
Anyway, atheism covers belief in God, but agnosticism is a philosophy that can be applied to everything supernatural. Sure, it might exist, but if it can't be properly observed or tested we might not be able to say anything absolute about its existence.
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RE: Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?
March 29, 2009 at 5:00 am
(March 27, 2009 at 10:06 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: (March 27, 2009 at 9:40 am)dagda Wrote: That is the problem with the bible; its the word of God writen by the hand of man and we screw up alot. There have been enough translations, copies, misunderstandings and passages writen on hersay that the original message could have concivably been don't buy time shares and we would not know. Even devout belivers should take the bible with a pinch of salt.
So if the bible is hogwash why believe in anything? You presumably are not a Christian?
Kyu
Mien Kampf was all hogwash (and extremly dry) but that does not mean we can not learn something from the writer through it. Why believe in anything? Just because there are some bad bits doesn't mean there are some good bits. Who can argue with the Ten Commandments? As far as moral codes go, it is a pretty fair attempt. There may be flaws, but you try coming up with a moral code which is as relevent today as it was 3000 years ago.
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RE: Does God Exist: The Argument From Evil?
March 29, 2009 at 6:08 am
The ten commandments are useless, they are rigid and unforgiving, far from a moral guideline and far from relevant. Especially because the first, what two or three are "I am GOD kill mine ass."
Heres the trick with admitting the bible is falliable, how do you determine what parts are right and what parts are wrong? Do you ask questions, just TRY that with a priest. I've not met one that would consider second-guessing a part of the bible, or even willing to consider a part a metaphor (unless of course the priest already considered that part a metaphor in which case they would not consider it was written literally).
For example
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. -- Proverbs 22:15
Should I correct my children with a blunt object or simply point out that they are acting foolish? If I should not use a rod then why does the bible so casually use it as a metaphor?
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