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RE: Scripture for Trinitarians
October 22, 2011 at 7:46 pm
There are a few things I've always wondered about the "trinity". Since it is allegedly comprised of the father, the son, and the holy spirit, what was it before Jesus came along? Was it the two-nity (or is is bi-nity)? If the father and the son are one and the same, and the father has supposedly always existed, hasn't the son also always existed? How could Jesus have been born if he always existed?
How do Christians think about these things without their heads exploding? Oh, maybe they just exercise their "free will" and choose NOT to think about these things.
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
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RE: Scripture for Trinitarians
October 22, 2011 at 11:28 pm
(October 22, 2011 at 7:46 pm)Strongbad Wrote: There are a few things I've always wondered about the "trinity". Since it is allegedly comprised of the father, the son, and the holy spirit, what was it before Jesus came along? Was it the two-nity (or is is bi-nity)? If the father and the son are one and the same, and the father has supposedly always existed, hasn't the son also always existed? How could Jesus have been born if he always existed?
How do Christians think about these things without their heads exploding? Oh, maybe they just exercise their "free will" and choose NOT to think about these things.
Naturally, this is one of many intellectually forlorn topics of discussion that the early church wasted tremendous time fighting over. I think the final consensus was that Jesus had always existed even before becoming incarnate.
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RE: Scripture for Trinitarians
October 24, 2011 at 8:09 am
(October 21, 2011 at 12:05 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Here are a few choice passages in the Bible:
Quote:Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
The voice from Heaven is presumably Yahweh, speaking of Jesus in the 3rd person.
Quote:Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Jesus claims to have a separate will from his Father and states that he is subordinate to the will of his Father.
Quote:Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Jesus cries out that he has been forsaken by his Father, an event only possible if his Father is a separate being.
Quote: Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus claims not to have knowledge that his Father has.
Quote:Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son;in thee I am well pleased.
Yahweh speaks to Jesus in the second person.
Quote:Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:
Jesus speaks to Yahweh in the second person.
Quote:John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus claims to be the intercessor for his "Father". Being an intercessor for another person requires that he be a separate being from that person. Otherwise, this quote would be a tautology, "no man comes unto me but by me".
The reason I present all these quotes is to put aside all the analogies Christians like to use regarding the Trinity. The Ice-water-steam and the "I'm a father and yet also a son" analogies fail to explain why the above character could be part of the same God being and yet a separate person with a different will, set of knowledge and be his own intercessor.
The Father and the Son are different people, but together with the Holy Spirit they are One God. While Jesus was on Earth as a human being He set aside His power and relied upon the Father for everything, setting an example for us.
Hebrews 2:7
You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and did set him over the works of your hands:
As He became lower than the angels for our sake, He operated as a human would, while having access to the Father through his perfect obedience and sinless nature. It is the picture of human perfection, as it should have been.
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RE: Scripture for Trinitarians
October 24, 2011 at 8:20 am
It is a concept that makes very little sense. You are trying to explain something that is not put together logically.
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RE: Scripture for Trinitarians
October 24, 2011 at 8:34 am
(October 24, 2011 at 8:09 am)lucent Wrote: The Father and the Son are different people, but together with the Holy Spirit they are One God.
OK, one more time. Saying "three distinct persons, one being" is not an explanation.
Quote:While Jesus was on Earth as a human being He set aside His power and relied upon the Father for everything, setting an example for us.
This is not about superpowers. It's about identity.
John 10:30 "I and my father are one"
No mention about his setting aside his oneness with his father while he was staying upon this earth.
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... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
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... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Scripture for Trinitarians
October 24, 2011 at 9:19 am
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2011 at 9:20 am by lucent.)
(October 24, 2011 at 8:34 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: OK, one more time. Saying "three distinct persons, one being" is not an explanation.
Why not? I bet conjoined twins have no trouble understanding this concept.
(October 24, 2011 at 8:34 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: John 10:30 "I and my father are one"
No mention about his setting aside his oneness with his father while he was staying upon this earth.
He didn't set it aside. That is something that has always been true. Jesus, being God, has always been One with the Father, and always will be. Even while human, Jesus was still God. However, He came to Earth in a suborindate position to even the angels because of the addition of His human nature. So, Jesus had two distinct natures, divine and human, but was still one person. That's why there seems to be a conflict in terminology, because His human nature changed how He related to the Father. After the cross, the human nature was reconciled back into the divine nature, which was the reason He came in the first place. I think this article will clear up some misconceptions:
http://www.faithwriters.com/article-deta...?id=135282
EDITED TO REMOVE DUPLICATE QUOTATIONS: Deistpaladin
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RE: Scripture for Trinitarians
October 24, 2011 at 9:29 am
(October 24, 2011 at 9:19 am)lucent Wrote: Why not? I bet conjoined twins have no trouble understanding this concept.
Emm, what did you just say?
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RE: Scripture for Trinitarians
October 24, 2011 at 2:14 pm
(October 24, 2011 at 9:19 am)lucent Wrote: I think this article will clear up some misconceptions:
http://www.faithwriters.com/article-deta...?id=135282
Yeah, the article cleared things up perfectly:
Quote:Jesus walked this earth as one-hundred percent God and one-hundred percent man. That is the common and prevailing understanding among mainstream Christian denominations...
...This then required Him to give up all His rights, power, and ranking as God (Phil. 2:7). He would come to earth limited by the physical and mental constraints of humanity...
... So having a mind like humans, having been stripped of its godly omniscience, Jesus lived as a human being under the Law.
(bolding mine)
So he walked the earth as 100% human and 100% God, except that he was stripped of the godly power omniscience? Makes perfect sense. I cannot fathom how Christians can perform these mental gymnastics without consuming mass quantities of Tylenol.
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
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RE: Scripture for Trinitarians
October 24, 2011 at 2:41 pm
(October 24, 2011 at 9:19 am)lucent Wrote: (October 24, 2011 at 8:34 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: OK, one more time. Saying "three distinct persons, one being" is not an explanation.
Why not? I bet conjoined twins have no trouble understanding this concept.
Marvelous example of design by a friendly god that's watching over everything, as an aside.
Back to the discussion, conjoined twins are not one being nor are they one person. They are two beings with one conjoined body. If some mad scientist were to stitch the two of us together, we'd still be two beings.
Quote:He didn't set it aside.
You said he did.
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... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
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... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Scripture for Trinitarians
October 24, 2011 at 3:13 pm
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2011 at 3:20 pm by Angrboda.)
Point retracted.
Mea culpa.
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