Scripture for Trinitarians

[lucent]

Marvelous example of design by a friendly god that's watching over everything, as an aside.

It was marvelously designed, before sin corrupted everything. In any case, God works with it and hasn't abandoned them. As an aside, I find it odd that you excuse your Gods absenteeism like it is a positive thing. All things being equal, an uninvolved/incompetant/powerless God whose Universe is some kind of glorified fishtank is one of the worst scenerios possible. It's strange to me that if He is a personal God, you hate Him, but if He is impersonal you think He has done a bang up job. Same Universe and everything, but two schizophrenic perspectives.

Back to the discussion, conjoined twins are not one being nor are they one person. They are two beings with one conjoined body. If some mad scientist were to stitch the two of us together, we'd still be two beings.

I am not saying it is a perfect analogy, but it is a useful one. There are plenty of examples of people born with two heads but sharing one complete body. For all intents and purposes, they are two in one.

You said he did.

I said He set aside some of His power and rank, not His identity.

[Minimalist]

John 10:30 "I and my father are one"

No mention about his setting aside his oneness with his father while he was staying upon this earth.

He didn't set it aside. That is something that has always been true. Jesus, being God, has always been One with the Father, and always will be. Even while human, Jesus was still God. However, He came to Earth in a suborindate position to even the angels because of the addition of His human nature. So, Jesus had two distinct natures, divine and human, but was still one person. That's why there seems to be a conflict in terminology, because His human nature changed how He related to the Father. After the cross, the human nature was reconciled back into the divine nature, which was the reason He came in the first place. I think this article will clear up some misconceptions:

That's because the winning xtian thugs killed off the docetists as heretics!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism

In Christianity, docetism (from the Greek δοκέω dokeō, "to seem") is the belief that Jesus' physical body was an illusion, as was his crucifixion; that is, Jesus only seemed to have a physical body and to physically die, but in reality he was incorporeal, a pure spirit, and hence could not physically die. This belief treats the sentence "the Word was made Flesh" (John 1:14) as merely figurative. Docetism has historically been regarded as heretical by most Christian theologians.

[DeistPaladin]

It was marvelously designed, before sin corrupted everything.

...and we have any kind of evidence as to what this universe was like prior to this "sin" coming into the universe to corrupt it so you can confidently make such a statement?

Btw, "The Bible says so" =/= evidence.

And how does "sin" corrupt exactly? Is it some sort of unseen substance like Dark Matter? Is there any way we can study its effects? Perhaps it's like radiation that mutates DNA to cause birth defects? Have there been any peer reviewed studies on this matter?

Or maybe it's all just a load of crap sold by religion to create a problem that doesn't exist (your souls is full of sin/thetans/past life trauma/etc) so they can solve your problem for you if you just give them all your money and believe what they tell you to believe.

In any case, God works with it and hasn't abandoned them.

How many conjoined twins were successfully separated by prayer or some other metaphysical approach?

It's strange to me that if He is a personal God, you hate Him, but if He is impersonal you think He has done a bang up job. Same Universe and everything, but two schizophrenic perspectives.

Let me try to explain it to you in a way that you can understand:

Power + Awareness = Responsibility

If God does not exist, God is not morally responsible for the ills of this universe. It isn't God's fault because God doesn't exist. This is why atheists aren't angry with God.

If God does exist but is not powerful enough to create a better universe or eliminate evil wherever it exists, God is not morally responsible for the ills of this universe. It isn't God's fault because God doesn't have the means to do a better job.

If God does exist but is not aware of our plight, God is not morally responsible for the evils we suffer. It isn't God's fault because God didn't know.

If God does exist but is neither omnipotent nor aware of our plight, both of the last two statements apply.

If, as you suggest, God is perfect, omnipotent and omniscient, then God has a lot of explaining to do.

Clear?

I am not saying it is a perfect analogy, but it is a useful one. There are plenty of examples of people born with two heads but sharing one complete body. For all intents and purposes, they are two in one.

Nope. Two conscious beings = two conscious beings, regardless of the shared body.

See my mad scientist example in my last post. If a mad scientist stitched my head to another person's body, with their head still attached, we'd be still be two beings.

I said He set aside some of His power and rank, not His identity.

But the passages suggest that he didn't know things that Yahweh knew and he had a separate will and design from Yahweh. There were two identities, not one.

[lucent]

...and we have any kind of evidence as to what this universe was like prior to this "sin" coming into the universe to corrupt it so you can confidently make such a statement?

Btw, "The Bible says so" =/= evidence.

The bible is a historical record and counts as evidence. I trust it is accurate for three reasons. One I know God exists. We agree on this one. Two I know that God is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. Three I know God doesn't lie.

And how does "sin" corrupt exactly? Is it some sort of unseen substance like Dark Matter? Is there any way we can study its effects? Perhaps it's like radiation that mutates DNA to cause birth defects? Have there been any peer reviewed studies on this matter?

Sin brought death into the world. The human body was designed to be immortal..I'm sure you've heard the research which shows that there isn't any reason our cells have to degrade, but rather it is something which seems programmed in. It's death which causes the physical corruption, and evil which causes spiritual separation from God.

Or maybe it's all just a load of crap sold by religion to create a problem that doesn't exist (your souls is full of sin/thetans/past life trauma/etc) so they can solve your problem for you if you just give them all your money and believe what they tell you to believe.

Or maybe this is true:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

How many conjoined twins were successfully separated by prayer or some other metaphysical approach?

It's not impossible, and even if it never happened once, it proves absolutely nothing.

Let me try to explain it to you in a way that you can understand:

I have no trouble following you. What I am hoping is that you have a more in depth understanding, and can come up with an intellectually honest viewpoint.

Power + Awareness = Responsibility

False. If you have the power to create a Universe, and you know you are going to create all sorts of lifeforms that are going to suffer and die in the process, you are morally culpable for all of it. Only a being who is completely morally bankrupt would go ahead and create the Universe anyway.

If God doesn't exist..This is why atheists aren't angry with God.

False. If God does exist, the atheists are angry with God. The possibility of God not existing doesn't explain anything away, because the opposite is also true.

If God does exist but is not powerful enough to create a better universe or eliminate evil wherever it exists, God is not morally responsible for the ills of this universe. It isn't God's fault because God doesn't have the means to do a better job.

If God does exist but is not aware of our plight, God is not morally responsible for the evils we suffer. It isn't God's fault because God didn't know.

If God does exist but is neither omnipotent nor aware of our plight, both of the last two statements apply.

He knew enough to know that His actions would lead to untold suffering, death and destruction. He knew His creatures would be crying out to Him, searching for answers that would never come, dying in bondage to cruel forces and dying without any hope. He did it anyway. If you're playing with a gun and it goes off and kills someone, you are responsible for their death regardless of how stupid and incompetant you are. These options at best makes God a mentally deranged psychopath.

If, as you suggest, God is perfect, omnipotent and omniscient, then God has a lot of explaining to do.

He already explained it, and also did something about it.

Nope. Two conscious beings = two conscious beings, regardless of the shared body.

See my mad scientist example in my last post. If a mad scientist stitched my head to another person's body, with their head still attached, we'd be still be two beings.

If you share a body, you are in a very real sense "one" with that person. There is no separation between you besides in your mind, and I have read that people who are born with these disorders do experience a conjunction in certain aspects of consciousness.

But the passages suggest that he didn't know things that Yahweh knew and he had a separate will and design from Yahweh. There were two identities, not one.

Yes, Jesus had His own will due to His human nature. Jesus had two natures, one being God, which is one with the Father, and one being Human, which was separated from the Father. He still had one identity, that is, the Son of God.

[The Grand Nudger]

Hehehe, designed to be immortal, no reason that cells degrade? You're a fucking loon.

[DeistPaladin]

The bible is a historical record and counts as evidence.

I trust it is accurate for three reasons. One I know God exists. We agree on this one.

No, we don't. You believe in Yahweh.

Two I know that God is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

You "know" this how?

Three I know God doesn't lie.

It's not impossible, and even if it never happened once, it proves absolutely nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

False. If you have the power to create a Universe, and you know you are going to create all sorts of lifeforms that are going to suffer and die in the process, you are morally culpable for all of it. Only a being who is completely morally bankrupt would go ahead and create the Universe anyway.

I don't agree. I'm glad to be here. You are welcome to end your existence any time you like if you don't appreciate it. (seriously, don't, suicide is never the answer).

He already explained it, and also did something about it.

Ah, yes, he sacrificed himself to himself because bleeding on a cross made everything better, didn't it?

He also stood by and watched as his followers, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox, inflicted countless acts of murder, torture and suffering in his name and to promote his glory. He did absolutely nothing to stop them or correct their understanding of his teachings. Any general would be up on war crimes if his followers behaved this way and he did nothing to stop it.

If Jesus exists, he is the least fit being in the universe to stand in judgment over anyone. He should beg our forgiveness, not the other way around.

If you share a body, you are in a very real sense "one" with that person.

Nope, for reasons already explained.

There is no separation between you besides in your mind,

The mind IS what we are as conscious beings. So you just said there's no separation except that we're separate.

and I have read that people who are born with these disorders do experience a conjunction in certain aspects of consciousness.

I have two twins that worked for me, separate but still twins, who testified that they could share experiences, like feeling what the other does. This doesn't mean it's true. Let's stick to what we know and not what we heard or read somewhere. This is how you got into trouble taking seriously a testimony from the 700 Club.

Yes, Jesus had His own will due to His human nature.

So he was a separate being from Yahweh, then?

Jesus had two natures, one being God, which is one with the Father, and one being Human, which was separated from the Father.

So he was both a separate being and not a separate being, then?

He still had one identity, that is, the Son of God.

So he was a separate being from Yahweh, then?

[lucent]

No, we don't. You believe in Yahweh.

Really? We both agree there is a God.

You "know" this how?

It was proven to me before I read the bible.

Three I know God doesn't lie.

I received proof the bible was true before I read it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

That applies to your statement actually. I was simply commenting that your argument, even if it were true, proves nothing.

Ah, yes, he sacrificed himself to himself because bleeding on a cross made everything better, didn't it?

He didn't sacrifice Himself to Himself. The Father and the Son are separate people.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...wBg&dur=16

He shed His blood for a purpose, which was to break the power of sin and death and make it possible for you and I to be reconciled with God and be forgiven for our sins. People are still benefitting from His work on the cross 2000 years later.

He also stood by and watched as his followers, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox, inflicted countless acts of murder, torture and suffering in his name and to promote his glory. He did absolutely nothing to stop them or correct their understanding of his teachings. Any general would be up on war crimes if his followers behaved this way and he did nothing to stop it.

You have no idea of what He did or didn't do. I'm sure you've never thought of this before but perhaps He did quite a bit and it could have been a lot worse than it was. In any case, no matter how many times you trot out the age old "evil disproves a loving God" argument, I can easily counter it with this:

If Jesus exists, he is the least fit being in the universe to stand in judgment over anyone. He should beg our forgiveness, not the other way around.

You excuse your God for all the evils in the world, and don't even care if He is a monster, yet you want to judge Jesus for doing something about it. Amazing. He has nothing to be forgiven for and everything to be praised for.

I don't agree. I'm glad to be here. You are welcome to end your existence any time you like if you don't appreciate it. (seriously, don't, suicide is never the answer).

So your counter argument is, it doesn't matter if your God is a moral monster because you got your life out of it, and if you don't like it kill yourself (but don't). Those are some real fine debating chops you have here. It's funny you're always pointing out flaws in other peoples arguments but when it comes to the meat of what you believe it sure is slim pickins. Do actually have an honest position here, or do you just have absolutely no defense?

Again, it's funny how you love your life, only if your God doesn't care about you and you die forever. You're happy with that, but if that God is an authority in your life, and holds you to a higher standard, that God is the most despicable being you could imagine. Quite an interesting parallel.

The mind IS what we are as conscious beings. So you just said there's no separation except that we're separate.

That's your opinion. Can you have a mind without a body? What we are, at least at this instant, is at least the sum of all our parts. What I said was, being joined in the flesh with someone is in a real way like being at one with them, regardless of whether you are perceptively sharing your consciousness.

I have two twins that worked for me, separate but still twins, who testified that they could share experiences, like feeling what the other does. This doesn't mean it's true. Let's stick to what we know and not what we heard or read somewhere. This is how you got into trouble taking seriously a testimony from the 700 Club.

I think it's funny that you don't believe personal testimony about nearly anything, but I am sure you think its fine for our legal system, or nearly everything we know about history, or all the facts that you believe about the world that you've never invesigated on your own. I tend to think that people who are actually in the situation would be a little more qualified to speak about it than myself And I got into trouble, how? When you ran away, you lost that debate.

So he was a separate being from Yahweh, then?

So he was both a separate being and not a separate being, then?

So he was a separate being from Yahweh, then?

Yes they are separate, but also the same essence.

[DeistPaladin]

Really? We both agree there is a God.

Quick clarification. "God" with a capital "G" is a proper name. "god" with a lower case "g" is a classification, as in "a god".

You believe in Yahweh. I believe in Nature's God. We both use the word "God" with a capital "G". The similarity ends there.

It was proven to me before I read the bible.

I seem to remember some flimsy rationalization in the story behind this claim but I must have washed it out of my mind. I'm feeling adventurous so would you run it by me again? I'm prepared to be underwhelmed.

[Argument from Ignorance] That applies to your statement actually. I was simply commenting that your argument, even if it were true, proves nothing.

Adding shifting the burden of proof to your list of arguments, huh? You see, it was you who suggested something was happening (God is helping) and I said "really, can you cite any examples". That "thud" was the burden of proof landing in your back yard. "Well, how do you know it doesn't happen" is an appeal to ignorance.

He didn't sacrifice Himself to Himself. The Father and the Son are separate people.

Except when they're not.

He shed His blood for a purpose, which was to break the power of sin and death and make it possible for you and I to be reconciled with God and be forgiven for our sins.

Because bleeding on a cross was the only way that he could convince himself to change a rule that he made in the first place and forgive us for being sinful beings which we are because an ancestor of ours who was made from a rib ate a magic fruit after speaking with a talking snake.

People are still benefitting from His work on the cross 2000 years later.

Imaginary benefits are easy to make claims about, aren't they?

You have no idea of what He did or didn't do.

History tells us precisely what he didn't do.

Catholic Church: Inquisitions
Jesus: Nothing
Protestants in Mass: Witch burnings
Jesus: Nothing
Catholic Church: Crusades
Jesus: Nothing

Even if we buy into the flimsy free will defense for general acts of evil, natural disasters and horrid diseases, a personal god should at least take ownership of his personal foot soldiers on this world. The actions of priests and appointed pastors and what they do in his name, for his glory, are a reflection on him. We hold generals to no less of a standard and they are not omniscient.

The fact is Christianity is the worst disaster to fall upon humanity (its only rival being Islam). It has not only promoted bloodshed, hatred and torture but at the best of times, it has brought intellectual stagnation and reactionary policies in matters of social progress. If Christianity is any indication of the nature of Jesus, and I see no way it can't be since he is personally involved, your Jesus is as evil as the organization he spawned.

I'm sure you've never thought of this before but perhaps He did quite a bit and it could have been a lot worse than it was. In any case, no matter how many times you trot out the age old "evil disproves a loving God" argument, I can easily counter it with this:

Somewhere in the world, a little girl has been kidnapped, will be raped and then murdered. Crime statistics sadly tell us this much. She may have parents who pray for her safe return. Their friends may do as much. I'm sure it will comfort them all that God couldn't give the scumbag a heart attack or stroke at just the right moment to save her from a torturous death.

My grandmother died of Alzheimer's. My mother and father of cancer. How about heart attacks and strokes to provide a quick death instead of a lingering monstrous living death (particularly my mother after the cancer ravaged her brain)?

And if God were to ever contact me and ask for feedback, I'd be able to give him a few constructive suggestions. How about women get wider pelvises in order that the miracle of childbirth might not be so dangerous and painful? Maybe the lower spine could be reinforced so that now that we've evolved to walk upright (that was a good step forward, God, we can use our hands for tool making) it can support our upper body properly? Another boon for women, the vagina doesn't open unless she's aroused so rape is impossible? And for parents everywhere, we don't come of age until 20 so teen pregnancy is impossible. Just a few obvious suggestions that a personal god would surely pay attention to.

you want to judge Jesus for doing something about it. Amazing. He has nothing to be forgiven for and everything to be praised for.

He created the monster called "Christianity" and set it loose on the world like a rapid dog. A pet owner is held responsible more than you hold your omnipotent god to.

Do actually have an honest position here, or do you just have absolutely no defense?

What do I need a defense for? Maybe an atheist has a case to use the argument from evil against Nature's God. You have no leg to stand on.

if that God is an authority in your life, and holds you to a higher standard,

WTF are you even talking about? Are you speculating, as some Christians do, that I refuse to "acknowledge" God's authority because I'm living some sort of debauched sinful lifestyle? I'm drug free. I don't smoke or drink. I'm happily married and faithful to my wife. I'm a law abiding citizen and an honest businessman. When I can pay all my bills and have much leftover, I look for worthy charities. My business helps the homeless by providing free services. What sins do you imagine I'm enjoying too much?

That's your opinion.

No, it's called a definition.

I think it's funny that you don't believe personal testimony about nearly anything, but I am sure you think its fine for our legal system, or nearly everything we know about history, or all the facts that you believe about the world that you've never invesigated on your own.

OK, pay attention, here are a few basic points of credulity:

1. ECREE (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence). If I tell you I had lunch with my friend today, you accept that claim at face value. If I tell you I had lunch with my deceased father who was back from the dead, you'd need to see some solid evidence and even then you'd be skeptical, right?
2. Testimony is weighed in terms of its credibility. In legal terms, it's called "consider the source". Historians do this too. If an accused murderer claims he's innocent, that's one thing. If his friend testifies that he's innocent, that's a little more credible. If a cop who was on the scene saw the one who did it and testified that the murderer was two feet shorter and female, that's really credible.

Clear?

And I got into trouble, how? When you ran away, you lost that debate.

No, when you held up Pat Robertson and a transparently obvious staged propaganda piece as an authority, you lost the debate. I didn't run away. I declared victory.

Yes they are separate, but also the same essence.

Ah, they're separate except that they're not. Glad you cleared that up. And no, the video didn't help your case.

[Minimalist]

Yes, Jesus had His own will due to His human nature. Jesus had two natures, one being God, which is one with the Father, and one being Human, which was separated from the Father. He still had one identity, that is, the Son of God.

What a ridiculous pile of blather that is.

[DeistPaladin]

What a ridiculous pile of blather that is.

Once again, Min, you manage to say in one sentence what I ended up spending a dozen paragraphs on. I need to learn time management.