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Quote:Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
The voice from Heaven is presumably Yahweh, speaking of Jesus in the 3rd person.
Quote:Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Jesus claims to have a separate will from his Father and states that he is subordinate to the will of his Father.
Quote:Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Jesus cries out that he has been forsaken by his Father, an event only possible if his Father is a separate being.
Quote: Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus claims not to have knowledge that his Father has.
Quote:Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son;in thee I am well pleased.
Yahweh speaks to Jesus in the second person.
Quote:Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:
Jesus speaks to Yahweh in the second person.
Quote:John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus claims to be the intercessor for his "Father". Being an intercessor for another person requires that he be a separate being from that person. Otherwise, this quote would be a tautology, "no man comes unto me but by me".
The reason I present all these quotes is to put aside all the analogies Christians like to use regarding the Trinity. The Ice-water-steam and the "I'm a father and yet also a son" analogies fail to explain why the above character could be part of the same God being and yet a separate person with a different will, set of knowledge and be his own intercessor.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
October 21, 2011 at 12:15 am (This post was last modified: October 21, 2011 at 12:17 am by Justtristo.)
Much to their credit Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the Trinity, because the New Testament does not support it. For instance Jesus is portrayed as either a man adopted by god as his "son" or a demigod (like Hercules) or a god's "logos" personified by the writers of the Gospels.
Also I don't think if the New Testament portrays the holy spirit (again possibly another manifestation of the logos) other than god's active creative force.
October 22, 2011 at 11:50 am (This post was last modified: October 22, 2011 at 11:50 am by Cyberman.)
(October 21, 2011 at 12:05 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Here are a few choice passages in the Bible:
Quote:Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
The voice from Heaven is presumably Yahweh, speaking of Jesus in the 3rd person.
Quote:Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Jesus claims to have a separate will from his Father and states that he is subordinate to the will of his Father.
Quote:Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Jesus cries out that he has been forsaken by his Father, an event only possible if his Father is a separate being.
Quote: Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus claims not to have knowledge that his Father has.
Quote:Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son;in thee I am well pleased.
Yahweh speaks to Jesus in the second person.
Quote:Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:
Jesus speaks to Yahweh in the second person.
Quote:John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus claims to be the intercessor for his "Father". Being an intercessor for another person requires that he be a separate being from that person. Otherwise, this quote would be a tautology, "no man comes unto me but by me".
The reason I present all these quotes is to put aside all the analogies Christians like to use regarding the Trinity. The Ice-water-steam and the "I'm a father and yet also a son" analogies fail to explain why the above character could be part of the same God being and yet a separate person with a different will, set of knowledge and be his own intercessor.
It must really, really suck to be Jesus. No matter what he says, no matter how emphatically he says it, every one of his followers thinks he said the exact opposite.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
![[Image: Untitled2_zpswaosccbr.png]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i1140.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn569%2Fthesummerqueen%2FUntitled2_zpswaosccbr.png)
