Posts: 4446
Threads: 87
Joined: December 2, 2009
Reputation:
47
RE: Questions for theists.
November 10, 2011 at 5:35 pm
(November 10, 2011 at 11:53 am)Rhythm Wrote: Oh we don't? Disagree all you like, but disagreeing on the basis of a favored fairy tale isn't exactly compelling.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environ...dying3.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition
I think a much more accurate way of expressing your disagreement is that we don't know how to reconcile your fairy tale with observable reality. That's not exactly "not knowing what happens when we die", is it? rom your links we read
"What you think has happened to the essence of the person at this point is dependent on your religious and cultural beliefs. But as our examination of the postmortem body " So perhaps a better title would be the biological process of dying
And the associated link from that author take you right to here
"A statistical analysis of more than 100 NDE subjects revealed that prior religious belief and prior knowledge of NDEs did not have an appreciable effect on the likelihood of having an NDE."
And before you get into ... but.. but the weren't brain dead so they're not really dead (just nearly), the discussion has been done already. Here's the first I found on a quick Google search
If you can't even use links that support your views or feel like questioning every legal medical measurable brain death diagnosis where the patient recovered.. have fun.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Posts: 67178
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Questions for theists.
November 10, 2011 at 5:42 pm
(This post was last modified: November 10, 2011 at 6:10 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
People have NDE's.
People (a demonstrably "real" thing) have experiences (interpretations of demonstrably "real" events, in this case dying) when they die (death being another demonstrably "real" thing). What does any of this have to say about an afterlife? I had a dream last night, does that mean that my dreamscape exists in the same way the the waking world exists? I think not. I've seen tons of studies on "the supernatural" too Tack. None of them are satisfying. Maybe because they have a nasty habit of not being able to be repeated, are lacking in critical areas, or are non-science peddled by people intent on selling bullshit to the gullible under the guise of an entity people have (rightly) come to trust.
From your link.
"The young man was never dead," said Dr. Paul Byrne, a former president of the Catholic Medical Association who began writing about brain death in 1977."
or perhaps this fun quote, from the same Dr. Byrne, in the same article.
"Brain death was concocted, it was made up in order to get organs. It was never based on science."
Holy nutjob alert. Yes, Dr Byrne. You know how those doctors are, always trying to get their hands on peoples organs!
Let's try something a little less crazy shall we?
"Brain death is the irreversible end of all brain activity (including involuntary activity necessary to sustain life)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_death
So, if this gentleman's heart was beating, if he was somehow able to respond (alerting those around him before being cut open), if he was still alive, then how exactly was he brain dead? Sounds like misdiagnosis to me. What does this have to do with NDE?
Ah, wait a minute, figured it out. This article appears on a website which is one of the projects of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_Life_Coalition a "Canadian conservative Christian pro-life group.", who "launched a vocal campaign against same-sex marriage" and has been described as an "online anti-abortion journal". Bravo. Sounds like these people are all about science. They couldn't possibly have sourced a nutjob out of the woodwork with a respectable set of letters in front of his name who advocates or argues for a position which agrees with their own faith based position(which he presumably shares).........(looks up). Nevermind, that's exactly what they did.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 14259
Threads: 48
Joined: March 1, 2009
Reputation:
80
RE: Questions for theists.
November 10, 2011 at 6:05 pm
(November 10, 2011 at 4:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That's something you seem to have down to an art. Making claims without expressly stating those claims. It would be clever if it weren't so transparent.
(November 10, 2011 at 5:05 pm)chadster1976 Wrote: Saying you don't know the answer to a question is an important part of science. It leads us to experiment and seek the truth. To blindly say "nothing happens" closes the door to potential knowledge. I didn't claim there is an afterlife, only that WE don't know. I stand by that.
So you are anti science now Rhythm?
Posts: 70
Threads: 3
Joined: November 9, 2011
Reputation:
7
RE: Questions for theists.
November 10, 2011 at 6:13 pm
I still haven't seen evidence that we understand consciousness or what happens to it when the body ceases to function. That is categorically not an argument that there is an afterlife. It is exactly what it seems to be, a statement that we do not understand something fully... yet.
Love 'n' hugz,
Lord Chad
4th Earl of Catsuit
There is nothing more dangerous than a man who knows he is right.
Posts: 67178
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Questions for theists.
November 10, 2011 at 6:17 pm
(This post was last modified: November 10, 2011 at 6:24 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Who said "nothing happens", quite alot happens. The links I gave aren't nothing, are they? What I'm saying is that fairy tales don't happen. I say that because we have no reason to believe that they do and every reason to believe that they don't. We have no evidence that they do, and mountains of evidence that they don't.
What happens to consciousness when the brain ceases to function? Ever seen someone shot in the head with a parabellum round? That's what happens to consciousness when the brain ceases to function. Gone, dead, nothing, nada, radio silence. That our brains are the seat and source of consciousness has been demonstrated about as well as anything could be. We have never, in all of human experimentation, found a single disembodied consciousness. We have however observed drastic alterations in individuals who have suffered sever trauma to the brain (intentional or unintentional), and we have of course witnessed death. What we don't understand are the specifics, not the generalities. To use a very simple analogy. When you pick up the phone, even though you don't understand exactly how the phone is transmitting the message, you can say with certainty that it is the phone doing the work and not "dark magic".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 12586
Threads: 397
Joined: September 17, 2010
Reputation:
96
RE: Questions for theists.
November 10, 2011 at 10:08 pm
(November 10, 2011 at 6:05 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: So you are anti science now Rhythm?
Your conclusion jumping is fucking breathtaking, fr0d0.
Posts: 70
Threads: 3
Joined: November 9, 2011
Reputation:
7
RE: Questions for theists.
November 11, 2011 at 7:24 am
Understanding where consciousness is and what it is are two different things. I understand completely how a telephone works. The difference between a phone and a brain is that even neurologists agree that the brain appears to be considerably greater than the sum of its parts. Now there could easily be a scientific explanation that is waiting to be discovered and I am not interested in perpetuating fairy tales. Your concept of heaven may be a fairy tale, but mine is not so defined. I await full enlightenment and will continue to search.
Love 'n' hugz,
Lord Chad
4th Earl of Catsuit
There is nothing more dangerous than a man who knows he is right.
Posts: 14259
Threads: 48
Joined: March 1, 2009
Reputation:
80
RE: Questions for theists.
November 11, 2011 at 9:06 am
(November 10, 2011 at 10:08 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: Your conclusion jumping is fucking breathtaking, fr0d0. So is your arse licking Summer. Rhythm contradicts himself at every turn. I'm gonna try ignore his bullshit from now on. I think the point has been firmly planted and we can dismiss him confidently.
Posts: 12586
Threads: 397
Joined: September 17, 2010
Reputation:
96
RE: Questions for theists.
November 11, 2011 at 9:23 am
lmao. I'm sure it'll feel like such a load off his back.
Posts: 70
Threads: 3
Joined: November 9, 2011
Reputation:
7
RE: Questions for theists.
November 11, 2011 at 9:28 am
Where was I? I think I lost consciousness for a while...
Love 'n' hugz,
Lord Chad
4th Earl of Catsuit
There is nothing more dangerous than a man who knows he is right.
|
![[Image: Untitled2_zpswaosccbr.png]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i1140.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn569%2Fthesummerqueen%2FUntitled2_zpswaosccbr.png)
