So I had dinner at my grandparents...

[athoughtfulman]

Dinner at grandparents who've been christians all their lives. I grew up going to church, used to be that golden child who held so much promise but I told them now I'm an atheist. What ensued was the usual lengthy discussion about reasons to believe atheism and reasons to believe in christianity, of which no resolution was reached.

However, they challenged me to come up with a case, write it all down, why I believe, why I think it's the smart, reasonable option, and that's what I'm going to do. Still, I know that it's likely nothing I say will change their mind and it will largely fall on deaf ears, but I'm excited by the opportunity to learn a whole lot about atheism and free thinking.

So here's what I'm doing, I guess it's something of an essay. I'm trying to make it as simple and straightforward as possible so they will understand and have no way to misconstrue or misunderstand my ideas.


Intro
- Go over points, define atheism, theism and christianity.
- make the point that criticism should be allowed to be made of all religions, irrespective of what people believe, as it's the only way to find truth.
- Why should the church be afraid of atheism if it's so sure god is real?
- quick review of faith (religious trump card, last redoubt, last place they make their stand)

Point 1 - Problem of evil
- Self explanatory
- Mention Epicurus' quote - "Is god willing..."

Point 2 - Bible
- why is it inspired by god? What backs up that claim?
- It's an axiom, not the end product of a process of reasoning. However I believe in [evolution for example] not because of a holy book but because I've studied the evidence.

Point 3 - Evolution
- I don't know much about this, so all help appreciated.
- Christians afraid of evolution because evolution challenges a literal interpretation of the bible and thus the authority religion draws from it. If the bible gets it wrong in biology, why trust it regarding morality and salvation?

Point 4 - Authentic Experience
- First seen with miracles, yet why are none witnessed today, only rumours?
- Even if humans have a hard-wired impulse to believe in god, that does not mean it's good. It may be the result of evolution (I think it is, though I don't have proof, so feel free to provide )

Point 5 - Jesus
- At the very least, he cannot be proven to have risen. A resurrection goes against every law of science that we have, which is to say, if he did rise, he is god, but there is no evidence to suggest he did.
- There is dispute about him even actually existing, depending on whom you talk to.

Conclusion
- Summarise 5 points.
- Ask for clear consideration and an open mind (a pointless question? )
- Ask for an honest, non-dogmatic response.
- Ask for mutual respect regarding beliefs. I'm happy for them to believe as they do, so long as they do not try to convert, convince, or persuade me to believe, unless of course they do it with intelligence and reason.
- If they expect me to have an open mind and read christian books including the bible (which I am happy to do, in fact, very interested in doing so) then they must be willing to read books about atheism and be open to the idea that maybe god isn't real.


That's it. Hopefully I haven't used any fallacies or anything which would undermine my case. This is just the rough overview, soon it'll be much more detailed. The thing is with my grandparents is they actually said they cannot imagine one single bit that god might not be real, to them there is no possibility. However I'm completely open to the idea of god being real, but at the moment, I see no evidence or good, scientific reason to believe.

I want your criticism, praise (if you have any ), and absolutely anything you can offer to help me build my case. This is more a case of me learning as much as possible about why I believe what I believe, which unfortunately is a habit very few christians have.

The problem of evil is fairly easy to deal with, as is authentic experience, though if you have advice, I'd love it. As for the bible, I'm not well read on contradictions, and problems with it, so I need help there. With evolution, I know next to nothing, and would love to know if it's a fact and why. As for jesus, I know there are some good cases to be made (not off the top of my head) for his being real, so I will need something good here. Christianity rests on the idea of jesus being real, and having died and rose, so if I can make a good case for him at least not rising, then I've done well, though if I'd like to eliminate as much possibility of him existing at all if possible.

Apologies for typos, misspellings, etc, I wrote this quickly

[Kyuuketsuki]

However, they challenged me to come up with a case, write it all down, why I believe, why I think it's the smart, reasonable option, and that's what I'm going to do. Still, I know that it's likely nothing I say will change their mind and it will largely fall on deaf ears, but I'm excited by the opportunity to learn a whole lot about atheism and free thinking.

Yes, my brother (who was what I would call spiritual but not a believer before he died a year and a bit back), challenged me to do much the same ... you can see it at my blog site (click on "Why I Am An Atheist" to the right).

So here's what I'm doing, I guess it's something of an essay. I'm trying to make it as simple and straightforward as possible so they will understand and have no way to misconstrue or misunderstand my ideas.

I didn't approach it that way but went more for the specific social & literary influences that lead me to cease believing in essence family, religion, science fiction & science, freedom of thought and internet creationism.

Good luck with your essay though

Kyu

[athoughtfulman]

Thanks Kyuu, I'll have a look at the blog tonight.

Regarding the points I wish to make, do you have any advice or websites where I can find some good arguments?

[Kyuuketsuki]

Talk Origins is excellent but that's really anti-creationist but maybe http://www.infidels.org or http://www.atheists.org?

I'd go read some stuff about why people lost their faith ... whilst science is a significant influence it seems to me that it isn't the most important reason why most of us stop believing, more of a reinforcement.

Kyu

[athoughtfulman]

Cool. I've been reading a lot at infidels.org. Yeah, I know that. Even christians believe in science, but my grandparents don't believe it's proven nor that science will ever contradict the bible, which is why I want to find evidence if it has. If evolution is a fact, then that'll challenge them. But the more powerful arguments will be in things like the problem of evil, the inability of christians to live their creed, the bible and jesus.

Thanks for the sites.

[leo-rcc]

Frankly I would leave out the whole Evolution part. You can accept a scientific fact like Evolution and still be able to believe in a deity. There are plenty of Christians that Accept Evolution.

[athoughtfulman]

Good point.

However I'd still be interested in learning more about evolution. Is there a good place to start?

[leo-rcc]

Good point.

However I'd still be interested in learning more about evolution. Is there a good place to start?

This one is a nice one for laymen.

http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/01/wha...ution.html

And of course the work of Kenneth Miller, Richard Dawkins, Donald Prothero.

"Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters" is a very good book on the subject.

http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/

[athoughtfulman]

Thanks a lot.

[Tiberius]

"Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters" is a very good book on the subject.

Correction: It is a fantastic book on the subject