Hoptoad, new target

[5thHorseman]

gingrich

[thesummerqueen]

If that fucker joined this forum, I'd leave.

[Hoptoad]

You wanted me to elaborate on what I am, what I mean by a simple Christian. A lot of ideas and concept's have been added to what Christ taught. Like a building that has been decorated with a fancy facade and as more and more decoration is added the building is lost from sight. I just try to see the original building, understand what he was saying.

The story has been embellished over time. With this as a given the question becomes how do you separate fact from fiction?

The main canonical gospels have remained the same other than translation changes since Constantine. As to changes made to the teachings by Constantine, would he have risked alienating his main supporters by producing a book that they knew was altered from what they had risked so much for?

Have they? Many, perhaps even most scholars believe that Mark 16:9-20 are later additions to the text. Later as in post Constantine. That says nothing about the origins of the Canonical Gospel, or whether they are actually what they are claimed to be. Many of those same scholars are proponents of the Two-source hypothesis. This hypothesis basically says that Mark along with another document called Q were used as sources to create Mathew and Luke. Very few Biblical scholars currently believe any of the Canonical Gospels were actually written by the people they are traditionally attributed to. If these things are true then it should cast a dark shadow of doubt as to the validity of what is contained in these documents.

Thank you for the mark 16:9-20, I was not aware of that one. Certainly possible an extra witness to the resurrection. But doesn't affect the teachings.

The mysterious Q, the three gospels as far as I am aware where recorded between the years AD 68 to AD 73, around the time of the destruction of the temple. That or the events leading to that giving credence to a small and I should imagine close religious sect. Luke him self admits at the start of the gospel he didn't witness the events but records them. Where as Matthew clearly refers to himself in the gospel, where he first meets Christ in a pub. Did Matthew crib mark or did all have the mysterious Q a set of the sayings of Christ, somewhat like the disputed Thomas. The existence of which is put around AD 50.
Twenty years after the death of Christ and well within living memory of the people living at that time. James preaching in Jerusalem, a story that the mass of people themselves where a witness to. Don't you think they would have noticed deficiencies in the story as they may themselves have witnessed Christ.
There are more explanations for a resemblance in narrative than they made it all up, if they did why kill them, why not at the time just denounce them as obvious liars.

I look forward to your next post, I am sorry to say after tomorow I will be missing till about friday or saturday

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I do not come to bring peace but a sword, was not a teaching, it was a warning.

This is going to be difficult to explain, I don't try to prove the existence of God, that is not my remit.
I hold that if God wanted his existence proved he could easily do it himself. I also believe it would be the most dangerous thing that could happen to man, we are not ready. If proof was given man would do as they where told but that is all they would do, we would lose free will, lose the ability to question, or advance on our merits, I don't believe God wants that.

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We don't have free will anyway, so that's ok.

You didn't really answer my general question, either. Are you saying you think every word spoken by Christ was righteous? Do you follow every one of his teachings?

You can have some of mine if you like, I have plenty spare.


It was a warning of what was to come and has come. How would a small time preacher know that?


Do I live by all the teachings, no, I am not a preacher, I have not abandoned my family nor will I. I am just an ordinary bloke doing the best he can, living according to a philosophy he has found to work.

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Sure Hop..you do it yourself.......or else! I don't believe that god gave us any celestial laws, or that he "sits in judgement" either. Course, the biblical position diagrees with me, doesn't it? God did set laws (legislation) and he will cast us into the lake of fire (sentencing). One of those things god set a law against and will punish us for just happens to be thought crime, if we are to trust the word of jesus.

Hell or sheol is cast in to the lake of fire, or so I think I am not up on the apocalypse. But I will tell you something, so far I cannot find any mention of eternal punishment and I have been looking. Perhaps some of you would like to help me out here.

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Did no one comment on his assumption that the theists here would have to be good ones?

We have a couple. Like, I can count on a few fingers. The rest...

I'll reserve judgment on you, Mr. Toad.

We have a Frog, a Toad, and now we just need a Newt.

Because on here I recon you would be really tested, me I am not that good, but I do like to learn acquire knowledge and deepen my understanding. I have found that the best way to do that is to face questioning.

[The Grand Nudger]

Wouldn't matter if the sentence only lasted a day Toad, it's still a sentence, and it's still thought crime. Care to spend a single night in jail for an opinion (even one you never so much as voiced)? Clever attempt to change the subject and steer the conversation away from an objection for which you have no answer. Sadly, it's a common tactic for you and yours. I'm familiar, and so I call massive bullshit.

[ElDinero]

You can have some of mine if you like, I have plenty spare.

It was a warning of what was to come and has come. How would a small time preacher know that?

Do I live by all the teachings, no, I am not a preacher, I have not abandoned my family nor will I. I am just an ordinary bloke doing the best he can, living according to a philosophy he has found to work.

Huh? What are you yammering about? Have you forgotten what your original quote was?

Let me give an example, Christ said love your fellow man, he didn't say except for, or only if.
That's a lot of people, all of them. It's a big concept I am sure you can see the problems with it. But when you start limiting that care that respect to only the groups and individuals you approve of, then you open the door to hating the ones you don't.

So that's what I do, I try to think like that, to live like that.

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You are saying that you believe the words of Christ are true, and that's why you follow him. Now you say you don't follow ALL his teachings. So how do you choose which ones to follow and which not to follow?

The part I find most hilarious is that in the same breath you say 'I don't live by all the teachings' and then 'Living according to a philosophy he has found to work', even though you have JUST SAID that you don't! You don't live by that philosophy at all, you pick and choose the bits you like, same as literally every other theist does. Must try harder.

On the 'bringing a sword', I really hope you're not implying that making that statement is any kind of evidence that Christ could predict the future. Not many people cling to that particular quote as a prophecy. That would be utterly ridiculous.

Also, there's a couple of free will threads kicking around. Care to give an example of someone utilising free will?

[thesummerqueen]

Mmmm, well sweet pea that's a noble purpose but unfortunately too many Christians hear the questions and shove their fingers in their ears saying LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA! Side stepping is a common tactic...or ignoring...or deliberate evasiveness...or purposeful misinterpretation...

We have an entire "Did dinosaurs exist" thread to show how "questioning" doesn't really lead to much more than a circle jerk with some of them.

[lucent]

Introducing, Hoptoad, How de do.

Simple Christian, simple not stupid. Religious history so far, Atheist to Agnostic to Christian to what I am now, Christianity without the embellishments.

Age, oldish well, more old than ish.

Posting habits, I live a full and chaotic life, I post from a number of places, using different equipment some of it is fairly primitive so sometimes I am unable to view video and other problems. My posts will probably be few and erratic, sometimes I will vanish for weeks on end without warning, which is annoying when you are in a discussion, it will happen so apologies in advance.

My sense of humor sometimes gets the better of me, don't take it personally I mean no harm.

So why a Christian on a Atheist forum, I was wandering past and saw the welcome mat so I thought I would take a nosey. Also I like Atheists, they ask some interesting questions, they also ask some stupid questions but you can ignore those. The forum has some good theists (they would have to be) and a good science section. So I will give it a try.

So that's Hoptoad, just an ordinary bloke.

Oh, and I am a smiley snob, I wont use the bugger's.

Welcome, brother. Just remember this verse and you'll do fine:

Matthew 5:11

“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

[The Grand Nudger]

Looks like jesus knew that people would call bullshit. Of course he would, since he knew he was spouting bullshit. You're not describing prophecy, you're describing a successful con.

[Hoptoad]

Wouldn't matter if the sentence only lasted a day Toad, it's still a sentence, and it's still thought crime. Care to spend a single night in jail for an opinion (even one you never so much as voiced)? Clever attempt to change the subject and steer the conversation away from an objection for which you have no answer. Sadly, it's a common tactic for you and yours. I'm familiar, and so I call massive bullshit.

Sorry about the delay in responding, I did say it will happen, it is the type of life I lead sometimes I get warning but not always.

Sentencing and legislation, free will and the results of action taken.

If I was a man inclined to burglary, which is illegal, and then carried out my inclinations for which I am caught. Then the judge sentences me to punishment. If the judge is not there or any legislation, nothing happens.

I smoke which is legal, it will probably kill me, if it does it will be the result of my actions that I do of my own free will. You can argue that as an addict to nicotine my free will is affected But is still my choice to do, I can quit if I want to enough. If I quit I may live a bit longer but I will still die, as will the burglar as will all of us.

The eternal life is a gift to be given, think of how you live as a job application.

There are only two rules and they are not even rules more a perspective, read it he tells you this, the rest are guide lines. Love God and love your fellow man. If you hold these as your perspective on life, you wont go wrong.

So are atheists condemned to death because they don't believe in God? Hoptoads personal opinion no, if you live your life according to the second part as some atheists do, I think you have a chance. I can just see him on judgement day saying, well do you believe in me now hummm.

Being sentenced for thought crime, may yet happen to me. It has happened to a lot of people on both sides of the philosophical divide and worse. I just hope I have the courage to face it and stand if it comes, I hope it doesn't though.

Not bullshit just a different opinion to yours.

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You can have some of mine if you like, I have plenty spare.

It was a warning of what was to come and has come. How would a small time preacher know that?

Do I live by all the teachings, no, I am not a preacher, I have not abandoned my family nor will I. I am just an ordinary bloke doing the best he can, living according to a philosophy he has found to work.

Huh? What are you yammering about? Have you forgotten what your original quote was?

Let me give an example, Christ said love your fellow man, he didn't say except for, or only if.
That's a lot of people, all of them. It's a big concept I am sure you can see the problems with it. But when you start limiting that care that respect to only the groups and individuals you approve of, then you open the door to hating the ones you don't.

So that's what I do, I try to think like that, to live like that.

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You are saying that you believe the words of Christ are true, and that's why you follow him. Now you say you don't follow ALL his teachings. So how do you choose which ones to follow and which not to follow?

The part I find most hilarious is that in the same breath you say 'I don't live by all the teachings' and then 'Living according to a philosophy he has found to work', even though you have JUST SAID that you don't! You don't live by that philosophy at all, you pick and choose the bits you like, same as literally every other theist does. Must try harder.

On the 'bringing a sword', I really hope you're not implying that making that statement is any kind of evidence that Christ could predict the future. Not many people cling to that particular quote as a prophecy. That would be utterly ridiculous.

Also, there's a couple of free will threads kicking around. Care to give an example of someone utilising free will?

Was I yammering possibly, I was well bushed that night.

I am glad you got a laugh out of it. How do I choose, I go where I am led, of my own free will Christians are not slaves you know. If I can refer to the post to Rhythm, the teachings are guide lines seen through the perspective of love God and love your fellow man. They have to relate to you and the life you live, we are all individuals all seven billion of us each with a different life seeing the world with different eyes.

The bible what is it off it's self. It was created as a guide on how to be a Christian long ago. That's how I see it, a guide as is which ever church a person may join, a guide. Not an ending, not a total answer, a start, your life is the learning process, it helps you see through the smoke and mirrors, the rest becomes clear over time with a bit of guidance.

Does the philosophy work. In my own life it has so far I have had everything it promised me, in more than twenty years it has not let me down.

Well if Christ didn't prophesy he must have been a bloody good guesser, he got such a lot right.

I probably will comment on the free will threads. Because, there where two nuns driving down a country road one night, sister Agnes and sister Mary. When suddenly a vampire jumped out on to the bonnet of the car, sister Mary turned to sister Agnes in panic and said quick sister Agnes show him your cross. So sister Agnes wound down the window and shouted, bugger off you big toothed bastard. If you can tell me the causal reasons I told that peculiar old joke at this time on this thread and why I thought it your a better man than me.

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Introducing, Hoptoad, How de do.

Simple Christian, simple not stupid. Religious history so far, Atheist to Agnostic to Christian to what I am now, Christianity without the embellishments.

Age, oldish well, more old than ish.

Posting habits, I live a full and chaotic life, I post from a number of places, using different equipment some of it is fairly primitive so sometimes I am unable to view video and other problems. My posts will probably be few and erratic, sometimes I will vanish for weeks on end without warning, which is annoying when you are in a discussion, it will happen so apologies in advance.

My sense of humor sometimes gets the better of me, don't take it personally I mean no harm.

So why a Christian on a Atheist forum, I was wandering past and saw the welcome mat so I thought I would take a nosey. Also I like Atheists, they ask some interesting questions, they also ask some stupid questions but you can ignore those. The forum has some good theists (they would have to be) and a good science section. So I will give it a try.

So that's Hoptoad, just an ordinary bloke.

Oh, and I am a smiley snob, I wont use the bugger's.

Welcome, brother. Just remember this verse and you'll do fine:

Matthew 5:11

“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

Thank you for the welcome , brother. You may not agree with some of the things I say or the reasoning or way I use it, for that I apologise. I have my path as you have yours, do not let me deflect you from yours, we are both heading in the same direction.

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Mmmm, well sweet pea that's a noble purpose but unfortunately too many Christians hear the questions and shove their fingers in their ears saying LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA! Side stepping is a common tactic...or ignoring...or deliberate evasiveness...or purposeful misinterpretation...

We have an entire "Did dinosaurs exist" thread to show how "questioning" doesn't really lead to much more than a circle jerk with some of them.

True enough, but Christians are not alone in that, some atheists also participate in that particular behaviour.

Other than a very oblique reference to the serpent being cast on it's belly, which makes you wonder what it was removed so it had to crawl, There is no reference I am aware of but I wouldn't expect any. The bible is not the sum total of all human knowledge, if it was it would not be a book it would be a library.

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Looks like jesus knew that people would call bullshit. Of course he would, since he knew he was spouting bullshit. You're not describing prophecy, you're describing a successful con.

Oh he knew some people would say that, I find it is easer for an honest man to spot bulshit, once he has heard enough than for a bullshiter. They are often fooled by their own bullshit.

[ElDinero]

Haha, what a joke. Terrible attempt at proving free will, genuinely one of the worst tries ever.

'Guidelines' 'Through the eyes of' yammer yammer yammer. So you pick and choose the bits you like, exactly like I said. So you don't follow the words of Christ, like I said.

Turns out I'm right again. Never gets boring.