Prayer

[Catholic_Lady]

I've never talked with anyone who thinks the breeze, in and of itself, is proof of God. So it's hard to comment on that first paragraph without talking to the person himself that said this. 

I was being facetious.

Now to answer your question. Miracles are not rare "in the bible" because that's pretty much what the bible is about lol. Supernatural happenings, God, etc etc. I don't take the OT stories as literal, real happenings, so it's pointless to comment on those. Most of the miracles described in the NT are attributed to miracles performed by Jesus during His life here. That's one person performing miracles out of the however many millions that were alive back then. I'd say in perspective miracles were still pretty rare.

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Well, that brings up more questions.  Do you accept all the miracles of Jesus as fact?  Do you accept any miracles in the OT as fact?  If no for either of those, how do you tell which is fact and which is fiction?

If all you take as fact is the miracles Jesus performed and, as you said, that was one person performing miracles out of how many millions of people alive, then what makes you think that miracles happen today?  Do you just accept the church's judgement on that?

I believe the miracles of the NT are true - the immaculate conception, the miracles performed by Jesus, His rising from the dead, the apparitions, etc etc. I think the OT stories are fictional. I think some are probably based on real people, but the stories are told in a way that is fictionalized. As for Church approved miracles, I haven't studied up on every single one of them, but I do trust the Church's judgement.

[Minimalist]

And do you also believe that Emperor Vespasian cured blindness as Tacitus reported?  Or is your belief in the absurd strictly limited to what you have been force fed since birth?

I suspect that had you been born in Mecca you'd be just as fervent about mohammed flying to heaven on a horse.

[Catholic_Lady]

A big one that happened not too long ago was the miracle of the sun in fatima. I think most Church approved miracles consist of apparitions and spontaneous healing of serious illnesses/disorders.

You can't name a single miracle, Old or New Testament, which didn't have a clear, inarguable purpose.  Do you really thing the sun thing in 1917 had a "clear, inarguable purpose"?  What was that purpose?  It seems like the only purpose would be to convince people that miracles are real, but that doesn't jive with the teachings of Jesus, who refused to perform miracles just to prove they were real.

The obvious ones like being healed from an illness, Jesus' rising from the dead, apparitions which told people some specific information, have their obvious purposes. As for the rest, I really don't know. I don't know why God chooses to send signs of His existence to specific people. I've had something supernatural happen in front of me that I would call a miracle, and I wonder all the time what the purpose of it was, or why it happened to me. I really don't know.

[Minimalist]

Well, this is timely.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/12/if-nothi...eep-it-up/

If ‘nothing fails like prayer’ then why do people keep it up?

“If prayer actually worked, everyone would be a millionaire, nobody would ever get sick and die, and both football teams would always win.” –Ethan Winer

The phrase “nothing fails like prayer” was coined in 1976 by secular activist, Ann Nicol Gaylor, and the evidence is on her side.  Research on “petitionary prayer,” the kind that makes requests, shows no overall effect or one that is very weak. The most that can be said is that God, maybe, operates at the margins of statistical significance—not a very impressive claim for an omnipotent, interventionist deity. The more carefully constructed the research, the less likely that prayer has any significant effect on those prayed for. Put it this way, a pharmaceutical company that made similar claims and had similar results would be sued out of existence.

[Asmodee]

You can't name a single miracle, Old or New Testament, which didn't have a clear, inarguable purpose.  Do you really thing the sun thing in 1917 had a "clear, inarguable purpose"?  What was that purpose?  It seems like the only purpose would be to convince people that miracles are real, but that doesn't jive with the teachings of Jesus, who refused to perform miracles just to prove they were real.

The obvious ones like being healed from an illness, Jesus' rising from the dead, apparitions which told people some specific information, have their obvious purposes. As for the rest, I really don't know. I don't know why God chooses to send signs of His existence to specific people. I've had something supernatural happen in front of me that I would call a miracle, and I wonder all the time what the purpose of it was, or why it happened to me. I really don't know.

I gather this is not a conversation you would like to have in-depth, and that's okay.  Brevity aside, you have managed to answer much of what I was asking.  Though it does bring up more questions, I will refrain from asking them.  I am curious as to what this miracle you saw is, but perhaps that's too personal.  I used to be religious and I know how personal an experience can be.

[Whateverist]

Meh. Prayer as an easy street to getting magical something from nothing is just silly. Why can't proponents of prayer repackage it as "trusting the force: the art of getting your conscious mind out of the fucking way so you can tap into your full potential". I'll bet that would sell. I'll take something mysterious over something magical any day of the week.

[Catholic_Lady]

Then let's talk about the NT only.  You're saying that "need" has changed, as I understand it.  Miracles were "more necessary" during early Christianity.  In what way has need changed?  What was the "need" for miracles back then?  Was it to convince people?  Why is there no need to convince people today?  Was the "need" just enough to get the ball rolling on Christianity?  Then why are there still miracles today if that need no longer exists?

For the spread of early Christianity, would be my guess. A couple examples are when the disciples were traveling around and spreading the word, each person heard the message in their own language. Also, what happened to Paul, who then went on to write part of the gospels. I imagine trying to spread a new faith 2000 years ago when you're just a small group of poor people would be very hard. I imagine that's why they had all that extra help spreading the word that we don't have the need for anymore today.    

To give you an idea what the previous Catholics I've talked to are like, I'll give you some examples.  The first was an unwed pregnant teen who I heard say, "I can't use birth control because I'm Catholic".  Really?  Wasn't there also some rule about sex before marriage, you dumb twit?

If you're unmarried and having sex, whether or not you use contraception becomes a moot point. The point of not using contraception is so you can give yourself to your spouse and vice versa in complete fullness through sex in its most purest form. Which doesn't apply when you are having sex with someone who is not your spouse. Sounds like your cousin is very young and doesn't quite understand that.

I got a second cousin out of that one.  Another thought that "proof" God was real could be seen in the sun and in babies.  He also thought he was more open minded than me because his beliefs were absolute, even though I was agnostic at the time.  Still another, who also mentioned Fatima to me, believes in every third world claim of miracles.  Some BS about blood liquefying on command.  It has all the hallmarks of a hoax.  There are about 20 known examples, almost all from the same area, tests on one sample proved it would liquefy at a certain temperature suggesting it's a clever mix of wax and oil and the Catholic Church does not recognize it.  Still another told me that if he stopped believing in God he wouldn't work for a living.  He would just kill people and take what he wanted.  No, he wouldn't, because not only was he just a tiny guy, he was also one of the most decent human beings I have ever known.  But when he tried to imagine "not believing" in God all he could muster was "rejecting" God in his head.  So that's where I'm coming from and why I'm so anxious to talk to a Catholic who's at least somewhat intelligent (not that you are only "somewhat intelligent", just that I don't know you that well, but you seem intelligent so far).

Wow. Sounds like you have an interesting family lol.

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The obvious ones like being healed from an illness, Jesus' rising from the dead, apparitions which told people some specific information, have their obvious purposes. As for the rest, I really don't know. I don't know why God chooses to send signs of His existence to specific people. I've had something supernatural happen in front of me that I would call a miracle, and I wonder all the time what the purpose of it was, or why it happened to me. I really don't know.

I gather this is not a conversation you would like to have in-depth, and that's okay.  Brevity aside, you have managed to answer much of what I was asking.  Though it does bring up more questions, I will refrain from asking them.  I am curious as to what this miracle you saw is, but perhaps that's too personal.  I used to be religious and I know how personal an experience can be.

I don't mind answering. 

But I just really don't know what the purpose is of miracles that don't necessarily *do* anything. There is a lot about the world and about God's motives that we still don't understand and probably never will in this life. We can only theorize on some thing and hope that it can help us gain a better understanding.  

As for my own experience, I've only told a handful of people so don't feel offended lol.

[Drich]

Prayers seem to fall very broadly into the categories of thanksgiving , supplication, and intercession.

According to Whom?

According to Christ When directly asked He gave a singular example and response:

Now Jesus[a] was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them, “When you pray, say:

“Father, hallowed be your name.

This is recognition. This is acknowledging who God is in relation to you. In short this is a call to respect or even worship God.

Your kingdom come.

Your Kingdom Come... Is To earnestly ask For God's will to be respected and followed on earth as it is in Heaven.
Think about that for a moment... Where in the bible does this sort of obediance take place outside the garden here on earth?

The book of Revelation. In short you are learning to ask for the end of the reign of man, and usher in the Reign of Christ.

So God's Will on Earth= All of the good and Bad of the book of Revelation.
Outside of the Joker or maybe Cobra Commander I don't know anyone who naturally wishes for this.

3
Give us each day our daily bread,[b]

This is the only point where we are directed to ask for anything, which is also limited to our daily needs.

4
and forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.

This part of the prayer is us asking God to forgive our sins to the same measure or degree we can for give others.

And lead us not into temptation.”

What, precisely, is there to thank God for? Since God created and maintains the universe, and cannot act in a manner contrary to his nature, then there is either no point in thanking God for rainbows and kitten videos on YouTube, or you should be as quick to offer thanks for the Oakland fire, or for the mudslide that destroyed [insert name of desperately poor village here]. All of these are inclusive in the will of God, so what is the point of being thankful?

Supplicatory prayers are pretty nonsensical as well-God already knows who worships him and who doesn't.  How does offering up this sort of prayer make a difference?

And asking God to intercede in human affairs strikes me as pretty arrogant.  Since nothing happens that cannot be part of the divine plan, prayers like these aren't going to change anything; you're not going to win the lottery, nor is great uncle Frim's testicular boil going to disappear based on your prayers. These things are going to happen or not, regardless.

Praying is just,well, stupid.

Boru

Prayers of thanksgiving is just thanks giving.

Prayers of supplication are just supplication

Prayers of intercession are just you asking God to interceeds.

Likewise prayers of petion are just you wishing.

Just because we put a Dear lord at the beginning of what we want and end it with Jesus name we pray, or just because we close our eyes or bow our heads does not a prayer make.

There is only one official Prayer and it is not about changing God's mind or getting Him to do anything for us. It is about us, changing our hearts and minds to serve Him.

That said once we learn to pray, God will hear our petitions, supplications and whatevers.

[Minimalist]

For the spread of early Christianity, would be my guess. A couple examples are when the disciples were traveling around and spreading the word, each person heard the message in their own language. Also, what happened to Paul, who then went on to write part of the gospels. I imagine trying to spread a new faith 2000 years ago when you're just a small group of poor people would be very hard. I imagine that's why they had all that extra help spreading the word that we don't have the need for anymore today.

Try again.



http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=95

There is another problem for Christians who want to say that the explosive growth of early Christianity must be due to God. Compared to Christianity, atheism grew even faster during the 20th century. According to the World Christian Encyclopedia (the most respected source for religious demographics):

The number of nonreligionists…  throughout the 20th century has skyrocketed from 3.2 million in 1900… to 918 million in AD 2000… From a miniscule presence in 1900, a mere 0.2% of the globe, [atheism and agnosticism] are today expanding at the extraordinary rate of 8.5 million new converts each year, and are likely to reach one billion adherents soon. A large percentage of their members are the children, grandchildren or the great-great-grandchildren of persons who in their lifetimes were practicing Christians.

At the early Christian rate of 40% per decade and 3.2 million in 1900, non-believers would have only numbered 74 million in 2000, not 918 million. The growth rate of non-belief in the 20th century was 76% per decade.

Not only were 'xtians' a small group in the early 4th century they also lacked any sort of cohesion.

"Christians, needless to say, utterly detest one another; they slander each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse, and cannot come to any sort of agreement in their teaching. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own with deceitful nonsense...".

Celsus, c 180 AD

(These words brought to us by the noted xtian writer, Origen, c 250 AD)

Despite church bullshit reality seems to be that there were numerous groups using the umbrella term "christian" and it was not until one of them backed the right horse in the struggle between Constantine and Maxentius and were rewarded for their loyalty by Constantine that they were able to begin stomping out the so-called "heretics" and by later in the 4th century use their position to shut down the classical world.

This absurd notion of "missionaries" converting one sorry ass at a time is the worst kind of Hollywood horseshit.

[emjay]

Can you give an example - even if it's made up - of what you mean by a meditative prayer? And also, aren't most Catholic prayers basically scripted... all these affirmations you have to do... which seem basically like constant oaths of allegiance?

Any prayer can and should be "meditative". By meditative I mean that it gives us some quiet time to reflect and gather our thoughts. I think that's always a good thing to do, regardless of whether it's through meditation or prayer. There are scripted prayers for those who prefer it, but we are just as much encouraged to do our own. 

The scripted prayers you refer to, such as the Hail Mary and the Our Father can be that way as well. There's a difference between just repeating them mindlessly in your head, and really thinking about the words being said. The Hail Mary prayer is about asking her to pray for us (we fill in what we want her to pray for), and the Our Father asks for forgiveness for anything we may have done wrong (which we then reflect on), it asks for the grace to forgive others for having wronged us (again, reflect on that), and then asks for the strength to avoid whatever temptations we might have to act wrongly. Both also have what I suppose you would call an "oath of allegiance" in the beginning.

Fair enough, that sounds pretty cool... certainly not what I was referring to when I was describing prayer. Still externally directed... but then that will always be the case if someone believes in a god... but reflective as well. Imo, reflection is the most important thing so if you get some of that it's all good And in the case of the scripted prayers, it sounds like it could be likened to a meditative mantra, which is also good for reflection and cementing as it were, positive ideas.

PS What I meant by 'oath of allegiance' was what I read in the 'Catholicism for Dummies' book a while ago. I can't remember the details but it was basically reciting, ritually on a regular basis, the beliefs that all Catholics are supposed to believe. And that's why I likened it to an oath of allegiance.