(October 20, 2010 at 10:22 am)ib.me.ub Wrote: As if women in the Western World don't get beaten as well.

They do, but we don't make it legal (not okay, but permissible, you understand) so as to let their beaters feel more secure about it.

(October 20, 2010 at 10:22 am)ib.me.ub Wrote: As if women in the Western World don't get beaten as well.

Thats not the point. In western societies it is condemned, illegal and people as a whole agree its an evil thing to do. Islam and it's political offspring however, again and again shows its contempt for women.

Quote:"As to those women on whose part you see ill‑conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great." (Surah 4:34)

Rayaan, I know you think that makes everything okay. I wonder if you can ever hope to see how it makes me think that allah is a real scumbag?

Try to remember that the potentiality of any of this stuff being inspired by an actual deity is exceedingly remote. This shit was written by MEN for a human agenda.

"God," my friend, is merely the product that religion sells.

(October 20, 2010 at 10:22 am)ib.me.ub Wrote: As if women in the Western World don't get beaten as well.

It is a particular disease in all the Judeo-Christian-Islamic sects. Actually, fact is, in the Western world it was only some Native American cultures and Celtic ones that I have read gave women equal social and religious rights, or occasionally ran on a matriarchal system. I don't know the eastern ones very well, so I can't speak for them.

This isn't to say either that an atheist isn't capable of beating his wife - but neither are atheist parents and figures of authority teaching their children as they grow up that it is permissible for a man to beat a woman if she 'misbehaves' and that she should accept such treatment.

I'm sorry, Rayaan, but the fact is that we're all human, and we will interpret things and act the way we chose according to our emotional/mental state at the time. It doesn't matter how "gently" a holy book treats something like this, it is still loose enough for a man (or woman!) in an enraged state to use it as an acceptable excuse to abuse a person who should be able to trust them implicitly. Even if the Koran says that it's a last ditch effort, who's going to be the judge of that? These domestic acts of violence aren't judged by peers and meted out in front of people who have agreed on the set punishment and will witness it to make sure it doesn't go too far. It's entirely up to the abuser to decide what is appropriate, completely colored by their emotions at the time.

Both Testaments and the Koran give ample statements to be cherry picked for how you are allowed to treat your spouse if you become angry with them - call me crazy, but without bringing the word of some invisible daddy in the sky into it, it would seem to me that the logic follows thusly: you treat everyone else around you with at least a bare modicum of respect anyway (do unto others, and all that), and you don't go around beating people who misbehave around you, what gives you the right to "lightly" beat the woman or man you have chosen to partner yourself with and share all the intimate things you'd never show the rest of the public? What gives you the right to treat differently the person who will help you bring new life into the world?

People argue that these laws were created in a time when there weren't secular governments to keep them in line, so they were necessarily brutal. They said the same thing about Vlad the Impaler, but you don't see anyone condoning making an example to your enemy by staking people - it's considered medieval and wrong, and we're supposed to be more civilized. Why shouldn't religious laws be the same way? Why should we cling to archaic allowances just because they're in a holy book that was written by HUMANS?

I don't think that this wife-beating rule makes much of a difference in maintaing a good relationship in Muslim families. As far as I know, I didn't hear any stories from my friends or relatives about a husband hitting his wife due to anger. Maybe I did but right now I don't remember any such case happening. In general, almost all the Muslim couples that I know of live just as happily as any other religion. And I have seen this especially in the relationship between my own parents.

Nobody really cares about whether or not the holy book gives them a permission to beat their wives, because ultimately, everyone knows that the more important thing in Islam is to treat other human beings in the best manner possible and not to cause them any injuries. In a saying by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), he said, "The best of you are those who are the best to their wives, and I am the best of you to my wives" (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 3895; Ibn Maajah, 1977). So, those who say that Islam promotes Muslims to treat women badly, is wrong, and they don't know about the teachings of Islam, because they have been brainwashed by the media and things on the internet into thinking that Islam is evil and so are the Muslims.

A scholar named Al-Qurtubi said:

"Know that God does not command hitting in His Book in clear terms except in this passage and with regard to the prescribed punishments (hudood), so disobedience to husbands is equated with major sins, and God has given the task (of disciplining) to husbands instead of leaders, and without the need for judges, witnesses or evidence, because God has entrusted wives to their husbands."

But of course, many of you don't even believe in God and think that the holy books are all made-up and wishful thinking (since this is an atheist forum).

@Chuck: Yes, a wife could also hit her husband, but is not advisable to do so just like it is not advisable for a man to hit his wife. It's a bad thing either way. Most likely she won't even think about doing it because she has other ways of showing her emotions instead of using her hands. To emphasize the main point once again, a certain level of physical violence is tolerable between a husband and wife according to the Quran, but this does not mean that it is advisable for you to hit them in any way you like and whenever you feel like doing it. I also would NEVER want to do this to anyone.

Edit: I don't have much to add to here because I think I've pretty much said everything I wanted to say on this topic. Now, you can take my views however you like it.

What about the so-called honor killings in the Muslim world? That's been making the news lately.
If a wife, or children, somehow dishonors their family, the Muslim husband has a right to kill them. Two American teen aged girls were murdered by their Egyptian father because they were dating non Muslim boys. The father fled to Egypt to avoid murder charges in the U.S. The video is disturbing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGCURDsbLvI&NR=1

"Allah" approves of that shit, too.

(October 20, 2010 at 5:58 pm)Minimalist Wrote: "Allah" approves of that shit, too.

Nope, Allah doesn't approve that.

"And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein; and the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him" (Surah 4:93).

Ruling on honor killings:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/101972/

This "honor killing" is a later invention which never existed during the early days of Islam.

All religions evolve, Rayaan. It's the golden rule.*





* He who has the gold makes the rules.

(October 20, 2010 at 6:09 pm)Rayaan Wrote:

(October 20, 2010 at 5:58 pm)Minimalist Wrote: "Allah" approves of that shit, too.

Nope, Allah doesn't approve that.

"And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein; and the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him" (Surah 4:93).

Ruling on honor killings:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/101972/

This "honor killing" is a later invention which never existed during the early days of Islam.

I wont claim to be a expert on Islam scripture, but there are certainly violent and sickening passages that I have read. But so many of you claim it's peaceful and not a violent religion, yet these passages exist and so many people, countries and communities (more than any other religion in recent history) have used Islam and by proxy Sharia to do evil and inhumane things in both the Islamic world and the Western world and despite what some moderates (not enough if you ask me) may say to justify and defend the quaran, there has to be a point where Islam has to be told it can play no part in the developing world and it either has to change it's ways MASSIVELY or fuck right off. At it's core, like all religion, it is evil, false and controlling but more so it is incompatible with what free countries promote...equality, tolerance, secular governments, free thinking, free choice, progressive education and peace. Honestly, if this comes across as a hate for Islam, thats for a reason, I do hate that religion more so than others, simply because it conflicts more so with the world I wish to live in than the other religions do. The world would be a better place without any religion, Islam would be the best starting point for that.