(August 1, 2015 at 12:47 pm)LastPoet Wrote:

(August 1, 2015 at 12:43 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Yeah, a dead son or daughter is punishment enough.

Something like this happened here in Portugal, I remember the judge ruled that the punishment they had was far greater than any he could give.

Prisoners there are probably not considered "assets" for politically well-connected corporations.

(August 1, 2015 at 12:04 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:

(August 1, 2015 at 9:01 am)mh.brewer Wrote: It's summer here in the US so the stories of kids being left in cars in the heat is all over the media. I thought I had heard this in passing on the radio but thought 'that can't be right, no one is that stupid". Then bored, I googled it this morning and there it was, strategies to use to not leave your kid in the car to be cooked alive.

The #1 strategy, leave your purse or cell phone in the back seat with the child. You might forget the kid but your damn sure not to forget the phone or money.

How fucked up is this? Is this what our materialistic society degraded into? Human life less valuable than a phone? I just don't get it.

http://www.kidsafefoundation.org/dont-le...-never-do/

It has nothing to do with materialism or valuing one's phone more than one's child.  It has to do with the fact that people forget things.  

Here is a good article on this subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/...story.html

It is a bit long, but if you want to understand this sort of thing, you should read it.

OK, I read it. And I understand the psych behind it but I don't accept it, at least not for me. Here is why.

My son is a human life and an integral part of me (at least at that age). As far as my son was concerned, no amount of stress in my life could have not made him my first priority. Not in or by the car, not in or by the pool, not around the dog,........ His safety became my highest stressor that I attended to. I could have no more put his life in danger than I could have put my own. That's why a say I don't get it, I don't understand it.

I'm not saying all of these parents should be considered criminals or prosecuted. I'm not saying that stress and memory lapse are not a valid reason for the behavior. I'm not saying I don't have compassion for these parents. But, I still don't understand.

This is not an attack but do you have kids?

(August 1, 2015 at 1:27 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

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(August 1, 2015 at 12:04 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: It has nothing to do with materialism or valuing one's phone more than one's child.  It has to do with the fact that people forget things.  

Here is a good article on this subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/...story.html

It is a bit long, but if you want to understand this sort of thing, you should read it.

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OK, I read it. And I understand the psych behind it but I don't accept it, at least not for me. Here is why.

My son is a human life and an integral part of me (at least at that age). As far as my son was concerned, no amount of stress in my life could have not made him my first priority. Not in or by the car, not in or by the pool, not around the dog,........ His safety became my highest stressor that I attended to. I could have no more put his life in danger than I could have put my own. That's why a say I don't get it, I don't understand it.

If you understood the psychology of it, you would know that it has nothing whatsoever to do with how much you love and value your children.  A memory lapse is not a sign of a lack of affection.

(August 1, 2015 at 1:27 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I'm not saying all of these parents should be considered criminals or prosecuted. I'm not saying that stress and memory lapse are not a valid reason for the behavior. I'm not saying I don't have compassion for these parents. But, I still don't understand.

This is not an attack but do you have kids?

No, I do not have children.  I decided at a very early age that I did not want them.  I do not think the world is a fit place for children, and would never intentionally bring a child into it.

Lots of people do not "intentionally" bring kids into it.  That's part of the problem.

(August 1, 2015 at 2:33 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Lots of people do not "intentionally" bring kids into it.  That's part of the problem.

Yes.  But I have been successful.  I was never careless about my actions.  I have had a very strong desire not to mess this up.  And I am not as stupid as many people are.

I remember taking a sex education class in high school, and the most striking thing to me was the silly nonsense that some people believed.  Like the absurd falsehood that there can't be a pregnancy the first time one has sex.  I never believed that piece of nonsense, or any other similar nonsense about sex.  Believing bullshit can have serious repercussions.  And so can being careless.

Of course, it is not only from stupidity and carelessness that unintended pregnancies occur.  But it is for a lot of them.  According to the CDC, the majority of unintended pregnancies (in the U.S.) involve no use of birth control:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr055.pdf

And, of course, some people do not properly use birth control even when they say they are using it, and so we may conclude that some of those who do use (or say they use) birth control are also being stupid or careless as well.

The upshot is, there would be a whole lot fewer unintended pregnancies if people were not stupid and/or careless.  It would not totally eliminate them, but they would be very significantly reduced.

I think the world is a fine place to bring a child into. Especially if you live in a first world country. We have an outrageously high standard of living. My kids, to my dismay, throw away so much food it's obvious they've never been concerned where their next meal will come from. When you look at how bad people in other countries have it, or how much better life is now that just a century ago, you realize how incredibly lucky you have it. I feel amazingly lucky all the time.

I never came close to leaving my kids in the car. They're old enough now where they would just get out themselves. But I find it odd about parents forgetting about their kids when they have them with them. I was always aware of their presence at all times. I feel sorry for the parents that do it though. Such a thing could easily bring someone to suicide.

It'd be easy for me to sit in judgement of those parents. I never forgot my son was with me in the car. I feel sorry for those parents, and my heart breaks thinking about those babies.

(August 1, 2015 at 1:27 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: My son is a human life and an integral part of me (at least at that age). As far as my son was concerned, no amount of stress in my life could have not made him my first priority. Not in or by the car, not in or by the pool, not around the dog,........ His safety became my highest stressor that I attended to. I could have no more put his life in danger than I could have put my own. That's why a say I don't get it, I don't understand it.

I'm not saying all of these parents should be considered criminals or prosecuted. I'm not saying that stress and memory lapse are not a valid reason for the behavior. I'm not saying I don't have compassion for these parents. But, I still don't understand.

This is not an attack but do you have kids?

Yes I do have kids and I love them dearly.  But, I care about me too and I've hurt myself by lapsed attention.  What makes you think my kids would be exempt to the inattention that hurts me?  I've never left a child in a car, but it could have happened.  I love the suggestion that there are things to do to help prevent that.

And someone, I think it was Min, was quite right about unintended consequences.  Baby car seats are required to be in the back seat.  What better reason for forgetting you have a baby with you?

I forgot a child once.  I took my eldest to preschool and my youngest inside while delivering goodies for preschool lunch.  I got  halfway out of the preschool parking lot before I remembered the youngest and that was only because I looked in the review to say something to her.  I went back and got her.  The lapse of attention didn't risk her life.  But it scared the hell out of me.  Have you never had a lapse of attention like that?  Because it is essentially the same as the parents who leave their kids in hot cars, or cold ones with the engine running.

Any system to prevent cooking or carbon monoxide poisoning kids is a good thing.  I'm all for notes to self and setting purses and cells by kids. If I'd left my keys with the car seat I'd never have gotten out of the parking lot.

Just read an article about animal shelters being full to the brim. It falls into a similar category, since people going on their summer vacation, simply abandon their pets on the streets. It speaks of total neglect towards life in general. Undisturbed vaccation is more important than the creature they supposedly cared for. I can't imagine doing that or forgetting a kid or even an animal for that matter in an overheated car. Sometimes I really feel ashamed to be a member of the human species.