(August 19, 2015 at 11:43 pm)jiffy Wrote: Great replies thus far! One thing that has surprised me is several are bothered by the tax-exempt status of churches. Would you suggest eliminating tax exemption completely, for all "religious" reasons? Perhaps it only remains for charity organizations only?

@Jenny A - what drove you away from Christianity?

@Redbeard - Are you referring to contemporary music? It seems like music coming out of several centuries ago was positively influenced (I'm thinking of Bach, Handel, Haydn, etc.)

Personally, I think if an organization is going to be tax-exempt, they should be a charity, they should have to apply, and they should have completely public and transparent books. If churches want tax exempt status, they should be required to do a certain amount of secular charity work that benefits the public each year (fundraisers for church needs/projects don't count, and missionary work does not count).


And yeah, I'm referring to contemporary Christian rock and contemporary Christian film, mostly. Modern Christian media should be insulting to Christians, honestly. Instead of making the best product they can, they tend to just throw together some half-assed shit knowing they'll make money on it because Jesus people will buy even a sub-par product as long as it has Jesus paint on it. They really just don't respect their audience enough to shoot for quality.

(August 20, 2015 at 10:23 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: If churches want tax exempt status, they should be required to do a certain amount of secular charity work that benefits the public each year (fundraisers for church needs/projects don't count, and missionary work does not count).

The missionary work is a tough one because a lot of modern-day mission work is charity work that includes some sharing of Christian beliefs. Would you simply prohibit any sharing of beliefs in order to qualify for tax-exempt status? Historically, a lot of mission work has been very beneficial to other cultures. For example, William Carey's mission work in India helped end the practice of Sati, the burning of widows.

(August 20, 2015 at 12:15 pm)jiffy Wrote:

(August 20, 2015 at 10:23 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: If churches want tax exempt status, they should be required to do a certain amount of secular charity work that benefits the public each year (fundraisers for church needs/projects don't count, and missionary work does not count).

The missionary work is a tough one because a lot of modern-day mission work is charity work that includes some sharing of Christian beliefs. Would you simply prohibit any sharing of beliefs in order to qualify for tax-exempt status? Historically, a lot of mission work has been very beneficial to other cultures. For example, William Carey's mission work in India helped end the practice of Sati, the burning of widows.

If you wanna yammer about Jesus while you're handing out trays at a soup kitchen or rebuilding disaster-damaged houses, be my guest. What I'm basically saying is that churches should be required to provide volunteer work and/or other kinds of material service to the general public if they want to be tax exempt. Providing Religious services to people who believe they are helpful is not a material service to the general public. If they want to use the same public services I do without having to pay taxes for them, they should be benefitting society (if not me directly) in some measurable fashion that affects people other than the members of their church. As for Sati, using religion to fight another religion is a very arguable form of the term "charity."

(August 19, 2015 at 11:43 pm)jiffy Wrote: Great replies thus far! One thing that has surprised me is several are bothered by the tax-exempt status of churches. Would you suggest eliminating tax exemption completely, for all "religious" reasons? Perhaps it only remains for charity organizations only?

@Jenny A - what drove you away from Christianity?

@Redbeard - Are you referring to contemporary music? It seems like music coming out of several centuries ago was positively influenced (I'm thinking of Bach, Handel, Haydn, etc.)

Wasn't it Jesus in the wholly babble that said something like: give unto caesar...

**What are the big problems/issues you see in the Christian church today?
Churches are full of people who believe in an imaginary friend, who is all-powerful and loves THEM best because they telepathically tell him how great he is.  If they don't, he'll make sure their afterlife is never-ending torture.  So to avoid this imaginary torture, they do what the preachers and priests tell them.  It's all based on fear and control, and being in an exclusive group of people that are "right" and will be going to "heaven".  They hate and abuse anyone who disagrees with them.  There is absolutely no measurable evidence for the existence of any deity. 


**Is your perspective of the former question from the inside (ie, your background was in church) or that of an outsider looking in? What took you away from church, if your background was church?
I was raised Protestant fundamentalist. As a child, I had to recite memorized Bible verses every night before dinner. Hell was so real to my parents that my Mother once burned my leg with the tip of her clothes iron, to give me a permanent reminder of what would happen if I ever doubted Jesus or any part of the Bible or refused to go to church. The Rapture was going to happen any day.   Then I grew up and started taking Science classes . . . reading Scientific American . . . (the horrors! My parents didn't want me to go to college, people who went to college ended up thinking that they were smarter than God!) . . . and listening to the absolute idiocy coming out of the pulpit.  It was a gradual thing.  

**What do you think about the person Jesus Christ? Is he real, historical person? Faked?
There probably was a real Jewish preacher behind the myth.

**What is the point or purpose in your life? What do you live for?
I want to help make the world a better place in some way before I kick the bucket.

(August 20, 2015 at 12:15 pm)jiffy Wrote: The missionary work is a tough one because a lot of modern-day mission work is charity work that includes some sharing of Christian beliefs. Would you simply prohibit any sharing of beliefs in order to qualify for tax-exempt status? Historically, a lot of mission work has been very beneficial to other cultures. For example, William Carey's mission work in India helped end the practice of Sati, the burning of widows.

Missionary work always comes with a price tag attached. As opposed to Doctors wihtout borders to name only one really charitable organisation. It's not sharing of beliefs, it's forcing it on others in order for them to get a few benefits offered.

For every good missionary work may have done, I can offer a lot of bad. Such as advertising and supporting anti gay legislations in African countries pretty recently.

(August 20, 2015 at 10:23 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(August 19, 2015 at 11:43 pm)jiffy Wrote: Great replies thus far! One thing that has surprised me is several are bothered by the tax-exempt status of churches. Would you suggest eliminating tax exemption completely, for all "religious" reasons? Perhaps it only remains for charity organizations only?

@Jenny A - what drove you away from Christianity?

@Redbeard - Are you referring to contemporary music? It seems like music coming out of several centuries ago was positively influenced (I'm thinking of Bach, Handel, Haydn, etc.)

Personally, I think if an organization is going to be tax-exempt, they should be a charity, they should have to apply, and they should have completely public and transparent books. If churches want tax exempt status, they should be required to do a certain amount of secular charity work that benefits the public each year (fundraisers for church needs/projects don't count, and missionary work does not count).


And yeah, I'm referring to contemporary Christian rock and contemporary Christian film, mostly. Modern Christian media should be insulting to Christians, honestly. Instead of making the best product they can, they tend to just throw together some half-assed shit knowing they'll make money on it because Jesus people will buy even a sub-par product as long as it has Jesus paint on it. They really just don't respect their audience enough to shoot for quality.

Pink, keep in mind adding churches to the 501c3 exemption status was put in place by LBJ in 1954 to limit the churches influence in social policy.  It's essentially the governments way of paying the church to stay quiet.  For a 501c3 church to openly speak out, or organize in opposition to, anything that the government declares "legal," even if it is immoral (e.g. abortion, homosexuality, etc.), that church will jeopardize its tax exempt status. The 501c3 has had a "chilling effect" upon the free speech rights of the church.  However, despite that I 100% agree with you on what should be required of a tax exempt organization.

(August 19, 2015 at 7:40 pm)abaris Wrote:

(August 19, 2015 at 7:36 pm)jiffy Wrote: Great clarification. Church as used here is the people that make up the church. Let's narrow it a bit and specify an evangelical fundamentalist for the purpose of this question.

I hold evangelical fundamentalists in the same regards as muslim fundamentalists or jewish ones.

Everyone feeling the need to force their view on others or on society at large is despicable. And I gladly extend the courtesy to secular ideologists also.

Can you name even one specific, and actual "secular ideologist"? Just because one has the brazen balls to speak for atheism in a country where Christians expect to have the final word on all public policies and proceedings does not make him a secular ideologist attempting to "force his view on others or on society at large". Nor is one doing the same when he insists that US Constitutional law be upheld and, when necessary, enforced.

Quote:Would you simply prohibit any sharing of beliefs in order to qualify for tax-exempt status?

Yes.

(August 19, 2015 at 7:24 pm)jiffy Wrote: **What are the big problems/issues you see in the Christian church today?

It's full of stupid.

Quote:**What is the point or purpose in your life? What do you live for?

Waffles.

There. Now you know