(August 23, 2015 at 5:44 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(August 22, 2015 at 10:22 pm)Jenny A Wrote:  I forget which Christian here startled me by suggesting that Jacob wrestled with Jesus, but it was pretty recent here on the forum.

 That would be me, now instead of saying you are startled prove me wrong.

GC

What is it about that passage that says Jesus to you?  Because he sure isn't mentioned.  Or is it because the being he wrestles with says he has striven with god and men?  He doesn't say he is both god and a man.  And even if he were a manlike manifestation of god that wouldn't make him Jesus.  God also appears a a burning bush, does that mean we have a quatrinty rather than a trinity:  god, the spirit, the burning bush, and Jesus?  Christians try to shoe horn the eternally existing Jesus into the OT, but he isn't there, just different manifestations of god, or in some cases multiple gods.

(August 23, 2015 at 5:44 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(August 22, 2015 at 10:22 pm)Jenny A Wrote:  I forget which Christian here startled me by suggesting that Jacob wrestled with Jesus, but it was pretty recent here on the forum.

 That would be me, now instead of saying you are startled prove me wrong.

GC

You have a real problem with the whole burden of proof thing, don't you? It's not up to Jenny to prove you wrong. It's up to you to support your claims.

(August 24, 2015 at 5:30 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 4:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: @ Jenny A, what denomination/s were you affiliated with, I'm curious.

GC

My family attended the Presbyterian church until I was 13 or so.  My father had attended seminary for a year there and was a lay preacher.   After that we attended the Lutheran church.  Lutheran have schismed and come in rather a few flavors from very evangelical to not so much.  We were not so much, certainly not Missouri synod who are essentially baptists with infant baptism and a liturgy.  The difference between the two, Presbyterian and Lutheran was primarily style.  The Presbyterians are more into a personal relationship with god, the Lutherans are more into worship services.

Thank you, I know little about the Lutherans, knew that the Presbyterians were some what like the Southern Baptist at least until the Presbyterians split. 

GC

(August 24, 2015 at 5:38 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(August 23, 2015 at 5:44 pm)Godschild Wrote:  That would be me, now instead of saying you are startled prove me wrong.

GC

What is it about that passage that says Jesus to you?  Because he sure isn't mentioned.  Or is it because the being he wrestles with says he has striven with god and men?  He doesn't say he is both god and a man.  And even if he were a manlike manifestation of god that wouldn't make him Jesus.  God also appears a a burning bush, does that mean we have a quatrinty rather than a trinity:  god, the spirit, the burning bush, and Jesus?  Christians try to shoe horn the eternally existing Jesus into the OT, but he isn't there, just different manifestations of god, or in some cases multiple gods.

I'm not sure how your post disproves that Jacob wrestled with Jesus? Even the Jewish people saw Christ in the OT, so why can't you? I'm sure you weren't taught your opinion when you were in church. Christ is the only part of the Trinity that appears as a man.

GC

So your claim is that jesus sent himself as the messiah? Why didn't Moses get his story straight? Did god have marbles in his mouth when he talked to moses?

(August 24, 2015 at 9:56 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 5:38 pm)Jenny A Wrote: What is it about that passage that says Jesus to you?  Because he sure isn't mentioned.  Or is it because the being he wrestles with says he has striven with god and men?  He doesn't say he is both god and a man.  And even if he were a manlike manifestation of god that wouldn't make him Jesus.  God also appears a a burning bush, does that mean we have a quatrinty rather than a trinity:  god, the spirit, the burning bush, and Jesus?  Christians try to shoe horn the eternally existing Jesus into the OT, but he isn't there, just different manifestations of god, or in some cases multiple gods.

I'm not sure how your post disproves that Jacob wrestled with Jesus? Even the Jewish people saw Christ in the OT, so why can't you? I'm sure you weren't taught your opinion when you were in church. Christ is the only part of the Trinity that appears as a man.

GC

 To put it less gently I asked how the heck you find Jesus in there?

(August 24, 2015 at 9:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: Christ is the only part of the Trinity that appears as a man.

Then whose ass was Moses checking out?

(August 24, 2015 at 9:27 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 5:30 pm)Jenny A Wrote: My family attended the Presbyterian church until I was 13 or so.  My father had attended seminary for a year there and was a lay preacher.   After that we attended the Lutheran church.  Lutheran have schismed and come in rather a few flavors from very evangelical to not so much.  We were not so much, certainly not Missouri synod who are essentially baptists with infant baptism and a liturgy.  The difference between the two, Presbyterian and Lutheran was primarily style.  The Presbyterians are more into a personal relationship with god, the Lutherans are more into worship services.

Thank you, I know little about the Lutherans, knew that the Presbyterians were some what like the Southern Baptist at least until the Presbyterians split. 

GC

What you don't know about protestants.  Luther versus Calvin was the first great protestant divide. The Presbyterians are mostly out of the Calvinist tradition and mostly a UK born sect, particularly Scottish.   They are not directly related to the Baptists and predate them by a good half century. Presbyterians and Baptists do share a largely Calvinist rather than Lutheran point of view.

 Lutherans, as you might gather for the name began with Martin Luther and started in Germany and spread through Austria and Scandinavia and only later into the U.S.

(August 24, 2015 at 10:00 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 9:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: I'm not sure how your post disproves that Jacob wrestled with Jesus? Even the Jewish people saw Christ in the OT, so why can't you? I'm sure you weren't taught your opinion when you were in church. Christ is the only part of the Trinity that appears as a man.

GC

 To put it less gently I asked how the heck you find Jesus in there?

 I believe the first question asked was for you to prove me wrong. I'm still asking prove me wrong.
 Like I said Christ is the only part of the Trinity that appears as a man, it was Jesus who visited Abraham before Sodom and Gomorrah. Christ did not enter the cities only the angels. I know neither situation refers to Christ, nor do they refer to the Father, the Father is always called and referred to as Spirit, Christ the Son is always seen as man and the Holy Spirit is seen as Spirit or dove and one case as flaming tongues.

 GC

And I still want you and Huggy to try to prove each other wrong.

Who has the burden of proof in that one? The person who made their position know second?