Christians are mostly harmless.

However, the rise of pan-Islamicism in the Middle East and southern Asia necessitate a reaction against it.

Unlike Christianity, Islam frequently has very specific social, legal structures, many of which are fundamentally incompatible with their secular counterparts. Combine that with the concept of defensive (and offensive) jihad and we have the ground ripe for an increasingly uncompromising force. One that will, if it gets it's way, sow the ground for a confrontation of Islamic values against Western values.

The dark future aside, to focus on the present issues in Western-Islamic relations, the primary motivator for the current mujaheddin is purely to get non-Islamic interests, policies out and away from their lands. While essentially the same in nature with a purge, the majority of the population believes in it and is being increasingly swayed by the rhetoric of the like of bin Laden, who, against the prevailing incorrect and dangerous Western views of him, is a very intelligent, patient and calculating foe and is more viewed by the Muslim world as a Robin Hood-type hero, standing up to the goliath of Foreign Interests.

It also helps that bin Laden rails against the oppressive and, by his terms, apostate governments of Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait et al, which routinely profess religious virtues while hypocritically charging off to luxurious and decadent pursuits. To the everyman in the awful place the Middle East is, a man who stands up against corruption and holds piety is inspiring.

Current source (supplement):
Anonymous. "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is losing the War on Terror". 2004.

The above comes from an anonymous HQ analyst involved in managing and analyzing intelligence gathered from numerous groups (a step below the high level guys who interact with senators), who published an earlier book that compiled the views among the Islamic world of foreign powers like the US (it isn't good compared to 15 years ago). An interesting note is the authors declaration of a (self evident) trend of ignoring unclassified material, ignoring "checkables" - laying out plans for gathering appropriate supplemental information to allow for planning, and high level cronies denigrating actual intelligence out of fears of ruining their own careers, political correctness and installing their own people.

Another interesting nugget is that the establishment of a western, secular government in Afghanistan is fundamentally impossible due to tribal affiliations, conservative trends, non-inclusion or elimination of the leaders and factions who fought against the Soviet occupation (Pashtuns mainly) and the xenophobic tendencies of the local populace.

(November 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: Never have i said that. But between ethnic cleansing between muslims sects killing thousands and some children killing themselves, one is clearly worse than another. Lesser evil.

My point is that it doesn't matter if it is a lesser evil. It is still evil. That's like saying that people shouldn't complain about murder because at least it isn't genocide.

(November 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: Yes, and i'm also familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church which holds more authority than the Bible since it is made by the infallible ecumenical councils. If you read the text, it's actually really not that bad for a religious text, especially towards women.

The catechism holds more authority than the word of god? *gasp*

(November 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: Do you genuinely think that Christians would kill homosexuals if they could do it without fearing the Law ? That's simply not true.
The Bible is extensive about going against murder, Jesus is a good example of that. Compare that to Mohammed...

Not all Christians would kill homosexuals, just like not all Islamic folk would kill infidels. But, yes, I do believe some would kill homosexuals if it wasn't against the law. That is true.

(November 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: yeah i...never said that. At all. But i would argue that creating a situation where someone can have authority from God is never good and can have horrible consequences.

Actually, you did . . .

(November 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: Even worse, the descendants of the Prophet hold a divine right to leadership that goes against all of what Democracy is for.

(November 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: Because for the large majority, Christianity is not VIOLENT. Bigoted, Ignorant, Obsolete ? yes. But not VIOLENT. Remember the Da Vinci Code ? Did people die from the protests ? Was Dan Brown shot in the face ? No. He recieved death threats, yes...but only threats. Christianity is a dog without fangs, barking away. Islam is a giant grizzli bear with bazookas strapped to its back.

---

Yes, the large majority are not violent. How many Islamic people do you think live in the United States? How many of them are violent?

All I am saying is that the same dislike for Christianity applies to Islam as well. One should not be hated more than the other because some Christians are happy knitting grannies. The same applies for Islam.

Why don't we attack both? What now are we saving ammunition or something? And for the records, christianity can get nasty too given the certain conditions..
Just remember the witch hunts...

Quote:And for the records, christianity can get nasty too given the certain conditions.

We know.

(November 20, 2010 at 11:32 pm)Shell B Wrote: My point is that it doesn't matter if it is a lesser evil. It is still evil. That's like saying that people shouldn't complain about murder because at least it isn't genocide.

I never said Christianity should be encouraged. All i'm saying is that when you have the choice between opposing a religion who kills thousands and a religion who kills dozens, why on earth would you focus your efforts on the second one ? Christianity is less dangerous to society than Islam, so Islam should be the PRIORITY. Not the only target, but the most important target.

Quote:The catechism holds more authority than the word of god? *gasp*

Yes it does ! Because this catechism is inspired by the holy ghost. It is also the word of God. Your argument would be valid 1000 years ago. Not anymore.

Quote:Not all Christians would kill homosexuals, just like not all Islamic folk would kill infidels. But, yes, I do believe some would kill homosexuals if it wasn't against the law. That is true.

I don't believe that, because when you want to kill someone with religious motives, you don't care about the Law. Christianity has been tamed over the last 200 years. Hate crimes against atheists or Jews or homosexuals are very very rare, and that's not because of the deterrent that the Law has, it's because there are much fewer Christian fanatics than there are Muslim fanatics. And i'm pretty sure even the Westborough Baptist Church people would not murder people even if they did not have to fear the Law.

Thinking Christians would do that is paranoia. Humans are overall nice people, and murder is something that requires enormous strength, that's why in war times only about 20% of an army actually shoot at enemies. People do not like killing people.

(November 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: Even worse, the descendants of the Prophet hold a divine right to leadership that goes against all of what Democracy is for.

Here, "even worse" means "to make things worse". Sorry i wasn't clear on that part.

Quote:Yes, the large majority are not violent. How many Islamic people do you think live in the United States? How many of them are violent?

All I am saying is that the same dislike for Christianity applies to Islam as well. One should not be hated more than the other because some Christians are happy knitting grannies. The same applies for Islam.

Yes Muslims in the US are harmless. The problem is, in the third world countries, Islam is not harmless at all. I never said either Christianity or Islam were entirely innocent or entirely guilty, but to my eyes, Islam is a religion that represents more danger than Christianity. When you make death threats to South Park simply for making fun of Mohammed, you have a problem.

(November 20, 2010 at 7:22 am)Rwandrall Wrote: Basically my main concern with religion is that it hurts society as a whole. Now, all religions have a negative impact in one way or another. Even Hinduism with its "nature is sacred" and "karma" concept led to the Cast system that is plaguing India's social structure.

My concern is that i see a lot of attacks on Christianity overall on these forums and in society as a whole. But the worst thing Christianity does today is molest children, which, yes, gives them horrible emotional scarring, but some pull through and no one dies.

Islam kills people. A LOT of people. Women are, in the book itself, worth less than men. And although homosexuality is as criticized as is Christianity, the Catechism of the Catholic Church changed this position to make homosexuality a disease that has to be prayed away, and homosexuals should not be held responsible for their behavior. Islam did not change, and keeps the death punishment very much alive.
Even worse, the descendants of the Prophet hold a divine right to leadership that goes against all of what Democracy is for.

If you look at Africa, the countries where Christianity is the main religion do better socially and economically, treat women and homosexuals better than in countries where Islam is the main religion.

Christianity has been attenuated by centuries of democracy and rationality. Islam has not. If there is one religion that people need to oppose, i'd say it's Islam.

The Islamic world has not undergone anything like the Enlightenment which changed Western Civilization profoundly. People in Europe during enlightenment challenged the primacy of dogma with reason and rational thought as opposed to dogma.

Hence today's Christians in the west unlike their medieval and early modern counterparts don't advocate burning heretics, banning books by scientists whose discoveries challenged dogmas and those suspected of being witches like they used to. Indeed much the same nasty stuff being committed by the Taliban and Saudi religious authorities were committed by both Catholics and Protestants in Europe 400 or 500 years ago.

If you are not already familiar with European history, please read at least the period from say 1500 to 1700, you would find that enlightening.

(November 21, 2010 at 7:29 am)ziggystardust Wrote: The Islamic world has not undergone anything like the Enlightenment which changed Western Civilization profoundly. People in Europe during enlightenment challenged the primacy of dogma with reason and rational thought as opposed to dogma.

Hence today's Christians in the west unlike their medieval and early modern counterparts don't advocate burning heretics, banning books by scientists whose discoveries challenged dogmas and those suspected of being witches like they used to. Indeed much the same nasty stuff being committed by the Taliban and Saudi religious authorities were committed by both Catholics and Protestants in Europe 400 or 500 years ago.

If you are not already familiar with European history, please read at least the period from say 1500 to 1700, you would find that enlightening.

i know all about that...what does that have to know with anything ? Are you saying we need to wait 500 until they get their enlightenment ? And the Muslims had their enlightenment, they made amazing progress in astronomy, medicine, or maths. And then the radicalism took over.

I think it's delusional to think a religion based on the Hebrew bible and the book of revelations can ever be truly tame. It is only kept chained and caged by the strenghths of secular influences that, through falsity of its claim of access to the divine, it was unable to anticipate or suppress. That elements of it puts foremost the overthrow of the secular forces that has kept it tame is evident in every evangelical fundamentalist rant one sees on TV. What it could do when unleashed is made evident by what it did in the 1990s when it wasn't even completely unleashed in the heart of Europe, as Serbs murdered catholic, serbs murdered Muslims, and in 1940s when Catholics murdered Serbs, all by the tens of thousands, not to mention what it it has already done in school boards in the US.

While Christianity may be unwillingly tamed in the west, remember the goal of fundamentalist Christianity is to stage a resurgence in the global south, where the influence of the enlightenment is the weakest.

They both have no value (Islam and Christianity), stop kidding yourself.

(November 21, 2010 at 2:46 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: They both have no value (Islam and Christianity), stop kidding yourself.

Wrong, Christianity has a lot of good to it and is the source of great accomplishments.Great numbers of charities are religious, and help people all over the world. Yes, of course, Christianity has done great harm and brought endless pain to humanity. But saying that it has no worth is a childish view of religion, the real world is more complicated than "reason: good, religion: bad".