Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
(November 21, 2010 at 2:46 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: They both have no value (Islam and Christianity), stop kidding yourself.
Wrong, Christianity has a lot of good to it and is the source of great accomplishments.Great numbers of charities are religious, and help people all over the world. Yes, of course, Christianity has done great harm and brought endless pain to humanity. But saying that it has no worth is a childish view of religion, the real world is more complicated than "reason: good, religion: bad".
But all the good it does could be and does get done without the religious aspect. In that sense it really is pointless and has no value.
(November 22, 2010 at 7:31 am)Skipper Wrote: But all the good it does could be and does get done without the religious aspect. In that sense it really is pointless and has no value.
Same goes for all the bad it does. The vast majority of pedophilia cases happen in homes, not in churches. Genocides have happened without religion involved (Rwanda for example). And mass delusion can happen without religion, look at any autocratic system to see that. Even suicide bombings can happen without religion, just look at the Tamuul Tigers in Sri Lanka.
I always thought that this argument was nonsense: there is nothing that religion can make you do, good or bad, that other means could not make you do. But religion can influence you in one way or another, and in that way religion is not pointless.
It's like negating the importance of parental involvement in children's education by saying that children can succeed without it, meaning parental involvement is pointless and has no value. You are using a double standard for religion and it is not a valuable argument.
(November 20, 2010 at 4:00 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Islam is the Arabic Christianity. There's not a dime's worth of difference.
Wrong. I know at least 20 differences right from the back of my head.
I've started a new thread called "Islamo-Christianity" that we can use to discuss this point further.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
November 22, 2010 at 4:51 pm (This post was last modified: November 22, 2010 at 11:51 pm by Autumnlicious.)
(November 21, 2010 at 2:18 am)annatar Wrote: Why don't we attack both? What now are we saving ammunition or something? And for the records, christianity can get nasty too given the certain conditions..
Just remember the witch hunts...
(November 21, 2010 at 7:29 am)ziggystardust Wrote:
(November 20, 2010 at 7:22 am)Rwandrall Wrote: Basically my main concern with religion is that it hurts society as a whole. Now, all religions have a negative impact in one way or another. Even Hinduism with its "nature is sacred" and "karma" concept led to the Cast system that is plaguing India's social structure.
My concern is that i see a lot of attacks on Christianity overall on these forums and in society as a whole. But the worst thing Christianity does today is molest children
(November 21, 2010 at 2:18 am)annatar Wrote: Why don't we attack both? What now are we saving ammunition or something? And for the records, christianity can get nasty too given the certain conditions..
Just remember the witch hunts...
It is silly to attack both equally when one is already defanged as a result of secular values, law and the Enlightenment having already happened. The same cannot be said for Islam.
And it is doubtful for Islam to have an Enlightment, as unlike Christianity where the nitty gritty of lot of law, procedures were not intergrated as components, it has a fairly extensive system of religious "legal" laws, guidelines so extensive to lay out the rules for proper conduct.
Although the Qu'ran does not specifically outline quite a few laws, the ability for Islamic scholars to issue fatwas using the Qu'ran and Hadiths as sources of information allow for extension of Sharia to encompass missing procedures, interpretations, guidelines and actions such as densive and offensive jihad.
Not good.
The silly Christians, on the other hand, were a bit more clueless than their arab counterparts, and left a lot of law alone under the assumption that their Christian culture would always carry it along with their new conquests, thus leaving a fair bit of law defined not be religious interpretations, but on rhetoric, facts and bits of logic.
(November 21, 2010 at 7:29 am)ziggystardust Wrote: The Islamic world has not undergone anything like the Enlightenment which changed Western Civilization profoundly. People in Europe during enlightenment challenged the primacy of dogma with reason and rational thought as opposed to dogma.
Hence today's Christians in the west unlike their medieval and early modern counterparts don't advocate burning heretics, banning books by scientists whose discoveries challenged dogmas and those suspected of being witches like they used to. Indeed much the same nasty stuff being committed by the Taliban and Saudi religious authorities were committed by both Catholics and Protestants in Europe 400 or 500 years ago.
If you are not already familiar with European history, please read at least the period from say 1500 to 1700, you would find that enlightening.
Quote:
(November 21, 2010 at 9:23 am)Rwandrall Wrote: i know all about that...what does that have to know with anything ? Are you saying we need to wait 500 until they get their enlightenment ? And the Muslims had their enlightenment, they made amazing progress in astronomy, medicine, or maths. And then the radicalism took over.
Studying the current situation of the Muslim World shows that increased technological development and scientific discoveries does little to stem the ease to which Sharia can be resurrected, as it exists in a fairly complete form.
, which, yes, gives them horrible emotional scarring, but some pull through and no one dies.
Islam kills people. A LOT of people. Women are, in the book itself, worth less than men. And although homosexuality is as criticized as is Christianity, the Catechism of the Catholic Church changed this position to make homosexuality a disease that has to be prayed away, and homosexuals should not be held responsible for their behavior. Islam did not change, and keeps the death punishment very much alive.
Even worse, the descendants of the Prophet hold a divine right to leadership that goes against all of what Democracy is for.
If you look at Africa, the countries where Christianity is the main religion do better socially and economically, treat women and homosexuals better than in countries where Islam is the main religion.
Christianity has been attenuated by centuries of democracy and rationality. Islam has not. If there is one religion that people need to oppose, i'd say it's Islam.
The Islamic world has not undergone anything like the Enlightenment which changed Western Civilization profoundly. People in Europe during enlightenment challenged the primacy of dogma with reason and rational thought as opposed to dogma.
Hence today's Christians in the west unlike their medieval and early modern counterparts don't advocate burning heretics, banning books by scientists whose discoveries challenged dogmas and those suspected of being witches like they used to. Indeed much the same nasty stuff being committed by the Taliban and Saudi religious authorities were committed by both Catholics and Protestants in Europe 400 or 500 years ago.
If you are not already familiar with European history, please read at least the period from say 1500 to 1700, you would find that enlightening.
(November 21, 2010 at 9:23 am)Rwandrall Wrote:
(November 21, 2010 at 7:29 am)ziggystardust Wrote: The Islamic world has not undergone anything like the Enlightenment which changed Western Civilization profoundly. People in Europe during enlightenment challenged the primacy of dogma with reason and rational thought as opposed to dogma.
Hence today's Christians in the west unlike their medieval and early modern counterparts don't advocate burning heretics, banning books by scientists whose discoveries challenged dogmas and those suspected of being witches like they used to. Indeed much the same nasty stuff being committed by the Taliban and Saudi religious authorities were committed by both Catholics and Protestants in Europe 400 or 500 years ago.
If you are not already familiar with European history, please read at least the period from say 1500 to 1700, you would find that enlightening.
i know all about that...what does that have to know with anything ? Are you saying we need to wait 500 until they get their enlightenment ? And the Muslims had their enlightenment, they made amazing progress in astronomy, medicine, or maths. And then the radicalism took over.
(November 22, 2010 at 7:31 am)Skipper Wrote: But all the good it does could be and does get done without the religious aspect. In that sense it really is pointless and has no value.
Same goes for all the bad it does. The vast majority of pedophilia cases happen in homes, not in churches. Genocides have happened without religion involved (Rwanda for example). And mass delusion can happen without religion, look at any autocratic system to see that. Even suicide bombings can happen without religion, just look at the Tamuul Tigers in Sri Lanka.
I'm not claiming people who are non-religious can't be evil, they can, but that's not the point here at all.
(November 22, 2010 at 10:31 pm)Skipper Wrote: I'm not claiming people who are non-religious can't be evil, they can, but that's not the point here at all.
That's not what i cargued either at all.
You said all the good of religion can come from secular means, making it pointless. I argued that all the evil it does can also be done through secular means. Does that make this evil pointless as well ?
Can you answer the priest scandals with "well, you can have pedophiles without religion, so there's obviously nothing wrong with the system" ? Of course not. And by the exact same logic, you cannot say "charities can exist without religion, so religion obviously does not encourage charity". Religion is a factor in people's behavior, for both good and bad things.
Without religion you would have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. It takes religion to make good people do bad things.
That's the kind of point I was trying to make. I don't think there would be any more evil in the world without religion, as anyone who wants to be evil already is. Religion dosen't stop evil people doing evil things it gives them an excuse and a get out of jail free card with the whole repenting and excepting to save their souls. But there are people who commit evil in the name of their religion who could otherwise have done good.
I'm probably not making the point very well but I think the point im trying to make is summed up best by the first sentence in this post. Obviously not my words, but certainly sums up my stance.
(November 23, 2010 at 7:11 am)Skipper Wrote: Without religion you would have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. It takes religion to make good people do bad things.
That's the kind of point I was trying to make. I don't think there would be any more evil in the world without religion, as anyone who wants to be evil already is. Religion dosen't stop evil people doing evil things it gives them an excuse and a get out of jail free card with the whole repenting and excepting to save their souls. But there are people who commit evil in the name of their religion who could otherwise have done good.
I'm probably not making the point very well but I think the point im trying to make is summed up best by the first sentence in this post. Obviously not my words, but certainly sums up my stance.
I simply do not agree with that. Take an example like the criminal who was holding a woman hostage, ready to murder her. She read the book "The Purpose-Driven Life" to him, and he changed his mind and waved the white flag. Or a pastor who once came to our church when i was still a theist: he was a gang leader and one day simply "saw the light" and changed his mind.
Look up on YouTube videos with the atheist comedian Ricky Gervais explaining why his mother made him believe in God when he was a child. He said "Jesus is like an unpaid babysitter". When you believe that God is watching, some people might refrain from criminal activities out of guilt.
These simple examples mean that religion can also make bad people do good things. There is no general rule, and these witty one-liners are not always right.
I just think atheists here just have a much too polarized view of religion. Life is not just black and white. Nothing is all good or all evil, especially religion.
June 8, 2011 at 10:10 am (This post was last modified: June 8, 2011 at 10:48 am by Zenith.)
(November 20, 2010 at 7:22 am)Rwandrall Wrote:
Basically my main concern with religion is that it hurts society as a whole. Now, all religions have a negative impact in one way or another. Even Hinduism with its "nature is sacred" and "karma" concept led to the Cast system that is plaguing India's social structure.
My concern is that i see a lot of attacks on Christianity overall on these forums and in society as a whole. But the worst thing Christianity does today is molest children, which, yes, gives them horrible emotional scarring, but some pull through and no one dies.
Islam kills people. A LOT of people. Women are, in the book itself, worth less than men. And although homosexuality is as criticized as is Christianity, the Catechism of the Catholic Church changed this position to make homosexuality a disease that has to be prayed away, and homosexuals should not be held responsible for their behavior. Islam did not change, and keeps the death punishment very much alive.
Even worse, the descendants of the Prophet hold a divine right to leadership that goes against all of what Democracy is for.
If you look at Africa, the countries where Christianity is the main religion do better socially and economically, treat women and homosexuals better than in countries where Islam is the main religion.
Christianity has been attenuated by centuries of democracy and rationality. Islam has not. If there is one religion that people need to oppose, i'd say it's Islam.
I've read a few posts in this thread, and THIS TOPIC IS INTERESTING!!
I agree: it currently seems that atheists focus too much on christianity and much less on Islam. And if we look around, Christian countries (where christians are majority) are much friendlier than the Islamic countries (where muslims are majority) - they do not start religious wars now, you can live in such a country without fear, they are opened to the rest of the world. Moreover, christians don't commit terrorist attacks, muslims don't fear that a christian would bomb himself in his mosque and a jew does not fear that he would be stabbed by a christian for being a jew. Currently, the worse thing about Christianity is indoctrination of its adherents, which is mostly (99%) not affecting the outer society, and moreover, the people of the church are subjects to the Law of the state.
But what is Islam now? In Islamic countries muslims bomb christian churches, kill christians, and when they are caught they are simply released because they did it in the name of Allah. Islam currently wages wars for religion, you can't afford to live in an Islamic country happily, you don't have freedom of speech there, and they are not opened to the rest of the world. Muslims commit terrorist attacks, jews have reasons to fear muslims, even in western countries. In the Islamic countries muslims try to exterminate the jews and christians and atheists and they yearn to have all citizens muslims.
And yeah, as about religious books: most christians ignore the old testament (where you find sadistic things, violence, etc.) and look only on the new testament. And even more than that, they listen much more careful to what their doctrine teaches, and I don't know one denomination that teaches its adherents to go and kill people (not the same I could speak about Islam in islamic countries). Moreover, the Islamic holy books are more sadistic and more violent and more anti-women than the bible. And yeah, the Jews hold on the Old Testament, but they have their own interpretations from their sages, and they, like christians, don't bomb themselves in the name of religion, and did not show themselves as a danger for the outer society, while Israel is a very developed country (especially if compare it with the muslim countries) and you wouldn't have feared living in Israel if there had not been muslim terrorists.
And still, the highest frustrations of atheists seem to be on christians. Even black metal bands never mention the muslims in their songs, but instead they only "look how evil christianity is!"
(November 21, 2010 at 9:23 am)Rwandrall Wrote: i know all about that...what does that have to know with anything ? Are you saying we need to wait 500 until they get their enlightenment ? And the Muslims had their enlightenment, they made amazing progress in astronomy, medicine, or maths. And then the radicalism took over.
That's a good point: Islam was not always that fanatical. There were also christians living peacefully in muslim territories in periods of the middle ages.
BUT... there's another point too: it seems that christianity was much more tolerant in the early middle ages (up to 8-9th century, or even slightly later on). As about the Catholic Pope, it seems that many fail to realize that he didn't have the ultimate power always (some catholic popes were exiled - and even worse - by the Byzantine Empire, while Rome was still in Byzantine hands, while the catholic Holy Roman Empire had disputes with the catholic pope and the catholic pope has been exiled, by the Holy Roman Emperor, as a result).
All monotheisms are just different labels on the same bottle. Call them different vintages of the same vinegar, because wine's too good to be left with priests.
