(October 16, 2015 at 3:25 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: which is why you cant look to science for wisdom its so limited unless your content with the limitations of science

Congratulations, with that statement you're officially not allowed science anymore.

(October 16, 2015 at 3:44 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(October 16, 2015 at 3:25 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: which is why you cant look to science for wisdom its so limited unless your content with the limitations of science

Science is actually much less limited than religion is. Science can use a large number of processes and tools to demonstrate that its findings are correct, and the findings of science have granted us boons that religion has always promised and yet failed to deliver. Religion, on the other hand, is limited to rhetorical hoop-jumping and dishonesty, misrepresentation of evidence, fabrication of evidence, and ignorance of evidence in order to convince anyone of its tenets.


Yes, science does impose limitations in some regards, but those are primarily designed with the aim of parsing out real things from made-up bullshit. Religion, however, is limited to a presupposed narrative that it must assume to be true at all costs. Any way you slice it, religion is vastly more limited in scope and method than science is.


The most damning thing is that science has pretty well explained religion/god itself (why it exists, what makes it work, etc.) in naturalistic and easily demonstrated terms, and yet believers have been unable to put forward or prove a better explanation, instead clinging to the presupposition that Gaud did it. Religion is also limited by the edge of science, since god by nature must crouch in the corners of scientific ignorance, shrinking a little more every time we learn something new.

i completely agree religion is very limited much much more than science is and does a terrible job at explaining the universe or God or anything really . as time passes and scientific discoveries are made it becomes more and more difficult for religious people to explain the reasoning for their beliefs  hopefully all religions will become extinct and the sooner that happens the better .

It is very difficult to elucidate this [cosmic religious] feeling to anyone who is entirely without it. . . The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it ... In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press)

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(October 16, 2015 at 4:08 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(October 16, 2015 at 3:25 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: which is why you cant look to science for wisdom its so limited unless your content with the limitations of science

Congratulations, with that statement you're officially not allowed science anymore.

i never said science was invaluable i just said it lacks wisdom because of its limitations

Science can only help us model reality and inform our decisions, it isn't meant to be a source of wisdom. Knowledge, but not wisdom.

(October 16, 2015 at 12:33 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: how is new knowledge not good ?

What you described is not knowledge. It's a belief - you really need to realize the difference. It's also a distraction and possibly a mental problem, so - yeah, I fail to see what's "good" about it.

(October 16, 2015 at 12:33 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: im not the only person who believes in God and rejects religions [...]

Of course you're not. But you're maybe 0.1% of the human population right now - and way less than that if you count people in the past. There have been billions and billions of people, who did not receive god's message, regarding discarding religion, so - yeah, you're special and god's "mind-casting" network does not seem to be working very well.

(October 16, 2015 at 12:33 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: many many atheists were once religious people and i believe that will contine why dont you think the trend will continue as it has ?

Still not making sense. "Many" is not a number. How many is "many"? It's easy to make generalizing blanket statements, when you don't care about facts...

I told you - billions of people lived their whole lives without being spoken to by god, OR becoming atheist. Which means - you can be a believer and not hear god in your head. People become atheists mainly because religions are antiquated and contrary to reason - NOT because god doesn't whisper sweet nothings into their ears.

Sure - the number of declared atheists is slowly increasing, because of EDUCATION and the fact that most religions organizations can't murder and burn atheists anymore - even though they would really like to. Still - we're only around 2-3% of the world's current population. Since god doesn't talk to the majority of the population of 7 billion - where are all the billions of atheists, who gave up religion, because god didn't speak to them? Like - there are 2 billions of catholics, who don't believe god directly speaks to them. By now there should be at least 2 billion of atheists in the world - WHERE ARE THEY? Why are there still Catholics?

No, of course you don't know, because all you seem to be doing is making up touchy-feely platitudes, in order to justify your own mystical outlook on the world.

(October 16, 2015 at 10:02 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(October 16, 2015 at 12:33 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: how is new knowledge not good ?

What you described is not knowledge. It's a belief - you really need to realize the difference. It's also a distraction and possibly a mental problem, so - yeah, I fail to see what's "good" about it.

(October 16, 2015 at 12:33 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: im not the only person who believes in God and rejects religions [...]

Of course you're not. But you're maybe 0.1% of the human population right now - and way less than that if you count people in the past. There have been billions and billions of people, who did not receive god's message, regarding discarding religion, so - yeah, you're special and god's "mind-casting" network does not seem to be working very well.

(October 16, 2015 at 12:33 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: many many atheists were once religious people and i believe that will contine why dont you think the trend will continue as it has ?

Still not making sense. "Many" is not a number. How many is "many"? It's easy to make generalizing blanket statements, when you don't care about facts...

I told you - billions of people lived their whole lives without being spoken to by god, OR becoming atheist. Which means - you can be a believer and not hear god in your head. People become atheists mainly because religions are antiquated and contrary to reason - NOT because god doesn't whisper sweet nothings into their ears.

Sure - the number of declared atheists is slowly increasing, because of EDUCATION and the fact that most religions organizations can't murder and burn atheists anymore - even though they would really like to. Still - we're only around 2-3% of the world's current population. Since god doesn't talk to the majority of the population of 7 billion - where are all the billions of atheists, who gave up religion, because god didn't speak to them? Like - there are 2 billions of catholics, who don't believe god directly speaks to them. By now there should be at least 2 billion of atheists in the world - WHERE ARE THEY? Why are there still Catholics?

No, of course you don't know, because all you seem to be doing is making up touchy-feely platitudes, in order to justify your own mystical outlook on the world.

you dont know what is in my mind or what my experiences are exactly so you have no basis whatsoever for saying that " what you described is not knowledge. It's a belief it's also a distraction and possibly a mental problem " .... how can such a diagnosis/judgement be considered anything other than a very biased assumption based on very little information  ? you do not have all the facts are heavily biased and are only guessing based on ignorance about my situation .

i have come across many atheists who say just that , that they did not feel any connection to God did not believe that God was real and therefore stopped believing in God . sometimes its a combination of not believing in religious doctrine and not feeling a connection to God and sometimes its just the doctrine doesnt make sense .

 ...... and try not to speak for all atheists or all believers ( or claim you know whats wrong with me or claim that you know the percentage of people in the world who have a real connection to God and know it ) ok just speak for yourself  what you do know for sure .... people have different motivations for believing and disbelieving . many believers dont understand that they can have a relationship with God and are content with just praying and thinking Gods "response" to be something that happens in the world that is in their favor and attribute it to God and content in their belief that that is a "relationship" . also there are social expectations and a sense of obligation in keeping their religious belief .

(October 16, 2015 at 10:30 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: you dont know what is in my mind or what my experiences are exactly so you have no basis whatsoever for saying that " what you described is not knowledge.[...]

Let me stop you there. Yes, I do have the basis to say that a voice in your head is not knowledge. Knowledge is information. Information can be communicated to other people.

What you have is some feelings and some experiences, that you can't prove, or show to other people. That's not knowledge. It's a personal belief and it's pretty much worthless to anyone but you.
And even for you - it appears of little use, except for fortifying your - irrational by nature - belief in god as well as perhaps your sense of self-worth, since you believe you have some special insight most people don't.

(October 16, 2015 at 10:57 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(October 16, 2015 at 10:30 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: you dont know what is in my mind or what my experiences are exactly so you have no basis whatsoever for saying that " what you described is not knowledge.[...]

Let me stop you there. Yes, I do have the basis to say that a voice in your head is not knowledge. Knowledge is information. Information can be communicated to other people.

What you have is some feelings and some experiences, that you can't prove, or show to other people. That's not knowledge. It's a personal belief and it's pretty much worthless to anyone but you.
And even for you - it appears of little use, except for fortifying your - irrational by nature - belief in god as well as perhaps your sense of self-worth, since you believe you have some special insight most people don't.

how do you know its not knowledge and that its just feelings ? you dont  KNOW anything in fact about others . speak about what you know . talk about your own experiences and things that you know about as a fact . when did i ever say i had some special insight that most people dont have ? stop making things up and stick to facts and things you know stop making things up and assuming you know whats going on with other people in the world you know no such thing . if anyone thinks they have special knowledge it seems to be you .

(October 16, 2015 at 11:07 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 16, 2015 at 10:57 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote: Let me stop you there. Yes, I do have the basis to say that a voice in your head is not knowledge. Knowledge is information. Information can be communicated to other people.

What you have is some feelings and some experiences, that you can't prove, or show to other people. That's not knowledge. It's a personal belief and it's pretty much worthless to anyone but you.
And even for you - it appears of little use, except for fortifying your - irrational by nature - belief in god as well as perhaps your sense of self-worth, since you believe you have some special insight most people don't.

how do you know its not knowledge and that its just feelings ? 

Entropy, actually. Kinda. Knowledge can be communicated and demonstrated. Teach everybody Peano's axioms and everyone can calculate, that's knowledge. Theology tends towards rhetoric and navel-gazing. 

If you knew god you could teach us god, but all we're learning from you is a lack of self-awareness. 

(October 16, 2015 at 11:27 pm)houseofcantor Wrote:

(October 16, 2015 at 11:07 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: how do you know its not knowledge and that its just feelings ? 

Entropy, actually. Kinda. Knowledge can be communicated and demonstrated. Teach everybody Peano's axioms and everyone can calculate, that's knowledge. Theology tends towards rhetoric and navel-gazing. 

If you knew god you could teach us god, but all we're learning from you is a lack of self-awareness. 

just because im not agreeing with your diagnosis of me doesnt mean that i lack self awareness .

(October 16, 2015 at 11:07 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: how do you know its not knowledge and that its just feelings ? you dont  KNOW anything in fact about others . speak about what you know . talk about your own experiences and things that you know about as a fact . when did i ever say i had some special insight that most people dont have ?[...]

You did use the word "knowledge". Use a word like "intuition", or imagination and I won't have any objections.
And let me reiterate the question, you're so desperately trying to avoid - what good is such a god, who whispers useless stuff into your mind, that you can't share with others, or prove it even happens? What good is a god that makes you appear as a crazy person to people around you, who DON'T hear it?
What good is a voice in your head, that gives you an illusion of knowledge, which stops you from pursuing actual knowledge?