Quote:Proof Jesus existed? The writings of Josephus as well as many of the other writings of the time all verify that there was a real man named Jesus Christ,

Oh fuck...Josephus again. Will they never get tired of trotting out this bullshit?

The Testimoniam Flavianum is an obvious forgery from the 4th century. We know this because we have Origen's commentary on Book XVIII of Antiquities of the Jews in which, even though the TF would greatly assist the argument he was trying to make he knows absofuckinglutely nothing about it. Eusebius' forgery ( and it may have been some unknown scribe on his staff but, as the cops say, in any crime- follow the money) proclaims Josephus as writing ""HE WAS THE CHRIST." Whereas Origen, also a xtian writer a mere 75 years earlier states that Josephus "did not know Christ." Obviously, even to a blind xtian that ought to be a wake-up call.

Before you trot out the whole tired litany of ancient writers kindly consult this thread beginning around post #22.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-5467.html

It's been done before. You are not the first xtian to show up here sprinkling jesus dust around and expecting everyone to marvel at your insight.

Understand this. I am not here to try to 'sprinkle Jesus dust', tell people that being gay is wrong, yell at people to repent, any shit like that. That's not how christians should act. I am on here because I am genuinely interested in the things that people talk about on here, especially the forums based around atheism. I am here to discuss with people what their beliefs are, and if people ask, what mine are. I have been asked about my beliefs, so I have described them, and have given evidence for why I believe certain things. DO NOT think that I am here thinking I am any better than any of you, or that I'm here expecting people to read what I say and then all of a sudden believe in God. I am here out of genuine interest.

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(December 7, 2010 at 1:50 pm)Lethe Wrote: The Ancient Egyptians worshiped a pantheon of gods, Ra (the sun god) was but one.

Yes, I know. What is your point?

I have been looking at that website, and most of it is just taking words and sentences out of context, and twisting its words. I have no respect for something that clearly twista something and uses it to provide some sort of evidence against the bible. I am open to genuine criticism of the bible, not the ridiculous things said on that site.

Quote:That's not how christians should act.

They'll throw you out of the club for that. Fundies are not the most tolerant of people.

There is no 'club' that I belong to, i hate organised religion, it really doesnt help anything

(December 7, 2010 at 1:17 pm)16three-john Wrote: Proof Jesus existed? The writings of Josephus as well as many of the other writings of the time all verify that there was a real man named Jesus Christ, who had a strong following, and a relatively small but devout group of Jews who were loyal to his teachings following his death who continued to cause trouble for the Roman leadership.

Oh, my. Josephus? He was born AFTER "Jesus" supposedly died. Anything he writes about "Jesus" is hearsay at best. Plus, the very short mention of "Jesus" in Josephus's writings is most likely a forgery inserted at a later date (Bishop Eusebius is the most likley perpetrator). Wouldn't you think that a man walking on water, healing people with a touch of his hand and rising up from the dead would merit more than a passing reference in the works of an historian?

Now show me where someone writes a first hand account of having seen "Jesus". (And, no, the Bible doesn't count.)

Quote:Also, the burial box of Jesus' brother James has been found to say 'James, brother of Jesus, son of Joseph', and many experts have verified that this is a genuine artifact. (However, there are some who claim it is a forgery. There is an ongoing case to determine its legitimacy)

So what? Even if true, this hardly supports the notion of a man who was born of a virgin and rose up from the dead. And it is quite likley that this is a forgery.

Next.

Quote:Before Jesus, not everyone just automatically got into heaven. It was based on their faith in God, like I said.

So, "faith" is what's important? Not how you treated other people?

Quote:Egyptians worshipped the sun, yes. Is the sun God? No. I don't really see what your point is here.

Of course you don't see my point....

The point is that people at one time thought the sun (or the moon) was a god. They believed this! They had faith in their belief! Now, does your deity toss them all into a firepit for eternity because they didn't know any better and their faith was simply misplaced? Because that would kind of make your deity a huge prick.

Quote:Like I said, getting to heaven was based on their faith in God, so obviously worshipping the sun and other Gods didn't get them to heaven. Same goes for Muslims, Jews, etc.

You say that Jews and Muslims can't get into heaven. They say you can't get into heaven. So how do we know who's right? How CAN we know who's right?

Quote:As for cavemen, how the hell am I supposed to know? God has all the answers, not me. But there wasn't a different God for back then, and a different God for now. It's the same God, so my guess would be that it was based on their faith too.

Then, according to what you've written, all the cavemen are in hell because they didn't have faith in your god. A god they couldn't have possibly know about.

Quote:What is your evidence that God didn't create man? Obviously I'm going to say that my main evidence for God creating man is the bible.

Favorite Creationist Tactic #1- Shift the burden of proof.

Sorry, Charlie. YOU are the one making a claim here. YOU are telling us that your particular deity created man. It is therefore YOUR responsibility to support this claim. It IS NOT our responsibility to disprove it!

And if "the Bible" is your evidence....

If you accept the Bible as true, you must also accept the Koran as true. Or the Book of Mormon. Or the Rigveda. They are all equally believable.

Quote:If God was to stop every bad thing that is going to happen in the world, we wouldn't have free will.

Okay, your deity wants us to have "free will" and he won't step in to stop people from harming each other. Now explain why your deity allows intestinal parasites to infest our bodies. Explain why he allows microbes that cause horrible suffering. Explain why he allows natural disasters that kill, injure and destroy homes. Because none of this has anything to do with "free will".

Quote:Why doesn't God stop us being controlled by sin? He does.

How?

Quote:Again, though, its due to free will that he doesn't force us to stop sinning. If you really have faith in God and realise that without Him, we are practically powerless, He will come into your life and help you live your life better.

Gee... he'll "make your life better". Could you be a little LESS specific?

Quote:(I have experienced this first-hand, but I know you're not going to credit that as meaning anything).

Depends what you're talking about here. Did this deity restore a missing limb? Did he restore a missing eye? Did he make you walk again after you had become a quadriplegic? Or is it some vague thing like "a feeling" you got. Or perhaps something good happened that you credit to this being.

Quote:Again, my evidence for heaven and hell are obviously the bible.

And the Bible is true because it says so! Welcome to the merry-go-round of logic!

Quote:Why do you think that the fact that to get to heaven you have to be perfect is bullshit? Or is it that you are just again saying that the existence of heaven is bullshit? Its unclear to me what you meant.

It's all bullshit. There is no reason to believe there is a "heaven" any more than there is reason to believe there is an Emerald City.

Quote:God doesn't send people to hell. He gives them the choice to come to heaven.

And if your deity doesn't deem someone worthy of entering heaven, your deity then sends the person to hell, does he not?

Quote:Consider this: A man is waiting for a bus in a piece of shit town. The bus comes along, and the driver says 'hop in, its free'. The man decides to stay in the piece of shit town. Did the bus driver force him to stay there?

I have a better analogy. A man desperately wants to get out of the piece of shit town, but he's been told by his parents, teachers and everyone else that the only way out of the town is to wait for a stagecoach. He waits on a corner for the stagecoach when a bus pulls up. The guy says, "Great! I can get on the bus!". But the bus driver won't let him on. The bus driver says, "You were waiting for a stagecoach! You had no faith that a bus would arrive! You have to stay in this shit town until you die!" The man protests and says that he was never told a bus would come! "Too bad!", says the driver. "Only people who have faith in the bus can get on!"

Quote:About the calling someone a butthead, its back to the point that getting to heaven requires perfection.

And there are no buttheads in heaven?

Quote:Children dying and people starving are just evidence of how this world is messed up. How about this: A man has a big dinner at his house. He invites many different people to eat with him. The food is served at one end of the table, and the people at that end eat all of the food. They do this course after course, eating the food that was enough to feed the whole table. At the end of the dinner, the people at the other end of the table say to the full people that they didn't get any food. The full people then complain to the host that not enough food was given, and that he is a bad host.

In this case, I would say the host did a shitty job of distributing the food.

Quote:I would argue that this is very similar to what people do when they dismiss God because people are starving. They are just blaming the host for something which is not his fault, it's ours.

It's VERY MUCH his fault. If this deity can snap his fingers and provide food to starving children, why doesn't he?

Quote:A sin is a sin. We are all imperfect, and don't deserve to go to heaven.

Maybe you have some kind of persecution complex, but I have done nothing that would justify denying me entry into eternal paradise (if such a place exists).

Quote:If you don't believe that the bible is historically verified, and dismiss my evidence for its reliability, then please provide evidence for the bible being fake or not true, etc.

How about this - there is no evidence to support the story of a global flood taking place within the past 5,000 years. There are also numerous contradictions in the Bible. So IT CAN"T POSSIBLY be true.

Quote:P.S. The Word of God has been the same for over 2000 years.

Yeah, don't you think it's about time he said something?

Quote: Scientists used to think that the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, and many other things that are now proven to be wrong.

Actually, the Bible is the source of all these misconceptions. Recall a guy named Galileo? Who was opposed to him publishing his findings that proved the Earth revolved around the sun? RELIGIOUS IDIOTS!

Quote:There have been many different arguments about the bible's validity, but none of them have ever disproved it.

We can disprove the Noah's Ark fable.

Quote:Most even turn out helping the bible's case. Science will continue to grow and change, and the only real truth in this world is God.

Yes, science will continue to grow and change. Unlike religious dogma which is rigid, static and unmoveable. Which is more likely to contain real truth?

(December 7, 2010 at 2:21 pm)16three-john Wrote: I have been looking at that website, and most of it is just taking words and sentences out of context, and twisting its words. I have no respect for something that clearly twists something and uses it to provide some sort of evidence against the bible.

I should have anticipated that response.

(December 7, 2010 at 3:07 pm)16three-john Wrote: There is no 'club' that I belong to, i hate organised religion, it really doesnt help anything

At least we agree on something. They won't consider you a 'true xtian' but if it doesn't bother you it sure as hell doesn't bother me. We need fewer true xtians around anyway.

If god was all that and a bag of chips, how come it took him so long, literally millions of years to manifest itself to humanity and then it only had the power for short conversations.

Where was god for all those millions of years?

I suppose the energy expended in creating the universe would take some recovery but millions of years?

Yeah...for an "omnipotent" god what is it with this resting shit? And why did it take six days? Shouldn't an omnipotent god have been able to snap his fingers and have it all there?

However, if you look at the story (written by a bunch of crooked priests, no doubt) that 7th day devoted to 'religion' allows them to cash in on the dolts.

Because the omnipotent god needed to fuck himself on the 7th day.