God is necessary for all things to come into existence, but what would be the reason for your theoretical "other thing" to be there?

Quote:As for #1...so what now, you're asserting that material things need a beginning, but immaterial things don't? So what about all the other immaterial stuff (angels, heaven, hell, etc.)? Those didn't need to come into existence either, right? Oh, they did? So Gaud is also the only immaterial thing that doesn't need a beginning? Sooo...about that Special Pleading...

I see angels, heaven and hell as physical places and things. Still thinking about it now, angels may be immaterial. I haven't given much thought to what angels are made of. Still, I was saying that God is not subject to change. Now that I look back at your passed post that wasn't what you were speaking about so that is my mistake.  

Quote:If Gaud knows the future, then the future is already written, and if the future is already written, then all the choices are already made and won't change. If that's true, there is no free will for humans. It's really quite simple.


It's like this: if I know in advance the exact fate of a being I'm creating, then the act of creation sets that being on that course irrevocably. The only person with the power to change it would be me, and the only ways to change it would be for me to either intervene and change one of those choices or forego the being's creation entirely. If Gaud has prior knowledge of everything in the Unvierse, then only Gaud has free will.

God has designed creation to work in certain ways (setting up physical and moral laws). Therefore, your compliance or rejection of these laws will affect you in certain ways. If you choose to jump off a building your body will be affected depending how prepared you are to land on the ground. Your relationship with a person you care about will be affected depending on the way you treat that person.

Not only that, it is impossible for God to ordain you to disobey Him (sin) because that would be a contradiction. He can't command you to disobey him because your disobedience would be obedience and that would negate itself.

Quote:Actually, no. The scientific community prizes academic honesty above all else and systematically ostracizes scientists who use dishonest means in an attempt to prove or disprove something. They're remarkably efficient on that front, actually.

Your statement would indicate that the science community does have people who misconstrue, ignore or fabricate evidence to support their claims; and if your statement is true some are found out.

Is it possible, in your mind, that some in the scientific community have erroneous presupposition that will impede the truth from coming out?  

Quote:No, actually I was waiting to see how long it would be before you admitted that some of those rules have nothing to do with harm and everything to do with Gaud's arbitrary whims and fancies. Thanks for finally admitting that.

Before I go further my I ask how do you know what is arbitrary? Is your definition based on an idea made up by humans?

God, being all knowing, eternal and all good, means he does not fall in the same category as you or I do, so by what foundation are you claiming that God's laws are arbitrary, whimsical, or fanciful?

Also, how is this different from when you,follow the rules of a society, that as you say are "subjective"?

Quote:Sooo...everything invented by people is arbitrary and meaningless? Shit...I guess Gaud must be arbitrary and meaningless, then. Couldn't agree more.

Also, according to your world view where it "neither [has] an intended purpose nor a proper function " all view points have the same merit. They don't have any worth because they are all man made. Your idea of my views is meaningless. People fight and kill for meaningless purposes. The death and life of a person is meaningless. Joy, Happiness, kindness, fun, anger none of it means anything. There is no meaning to life and nothing anyone comes up with will give it meaning.

Quote:I have no qualms about being disrespectful toward people who dis-earn my respect.

So in your world view do people have the same amount of worth? If they do why don't you regard everyone with the same amount of respect? If they don't, how do you measure their worth?

Quote:That does not follow at all.

If there is no design (purpose) as to which it, the world, should act; and if there is no way it should perform (function) then there is no standard by which to say what is "correct" or "incorrect".

Excuse me, but it doesn't seem that you are being consistent when You say that there is a correct or incorrect way. Base on your world view, you would be you labeling something based on made-up human standards. In your world view everything just is. So even if my statement doesn't follow it doesn't matter. Although, I recognize that my statement didn't follow so I apologize for the confusion.

Quote:Lack of metaphysical purpose does not strip everything of all meaning, dipshit.

The only meaning that does exist is metaphysical. Based on your world view, there just is and any interpretation of what is, is just arbitrary.

Quote:If you really need me to explain why, you probably wouldn't understand if I tried.

That is a interesting train of thought. If I don't understand then, I can't? Then how do people learn? Do only those who "innately" understand grasp a concept? If that is so why would it need to be explained? Why are you trying to convince me? Are only certain people able to understand certain things? If then who are, and too what criteria must they be made manifest by?

(October 18, 2015 at 10:31 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: You evaluate Abraham's morals so do you have any true foundation outside of your own perception by which you judge his actions?

Do you have any foundation to judge god's actions? If you only get your morality from god, how do you know what he says and does is good?

(October 18, 2015 at 10:45 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: God is necessary for all things to come into existence, but what would be the reason for your theoretical "other thing" to be there?

If Gaud exists but has no beginning, it means that other things could also exist without a beginning, meaning that being created by Gaud is not a prerequisite to existing. If everything must have a beginning and a reason to begin, then Gaud must also, and so he explains nothing without raising the question of why Gaud himself exists. If Gaud is the only thing that doesn't require a beginning and he is required to create everything else for those things to exist, then that is special pleading.

Quote:I see angels, heaven and hell as physical places and things. Still thinking about it now, angels may be immaterial. I haven't given much thought to what angels are made of. Still, I was saying that God is not subject to change. Now that I look back at your passed post that wasn't what you were speaking about so that is my mistake.  

If they were physical places and things, then we would be able to detect them by physical means. Where are they?

Quote:God has designed creation to work in certain ways (setting up physical and moral laws). Therefore, your compliance or rejection of these laws will affect you in certain ways. If you choose to jump off a building your body will be affected depending how prepared you are to land on the ground. Your relationship with a person you care about will be affected depending on the way you treat that person.


Not only that, it is impossible for God to ordain you to disobey Him (sin) because that would be a contradiction. He can't command you to disobey him because your disobedience would be obedience and that would negate itself.

He didn't just design it, though; he also has foreknowledge of it. If he creates me not knowing what I'll do, then I have free will because my future isn't predestined. If he knows everything I will do and everything that will happen to me, then I no longer have free will and Gaud becomes responsible for literally every event and action in my life. If he knows I will disobey if created and he still chooses to create me, then he is knowingly setting me on a path of disobedience. Maybe he doesn't command me to sin, but he causes me to by supposedly creating me with the foreknowledge that I will sin if created.

Quote:Your statement would indicate that the science community does have people who misconstrue, ignore or fabricate evidence to support their claims; and if your statement is true some are found out.

Is it possible, in your mind, that some in the scientific community have erroneous presupposition that will impede the truth from coming out?

In short, no. There is no evidence of such broad corruption within the scientific community. Scientists are primarily concerned with finding and sharing the truth. It's practically their entire job.

Quote:God, being all knowing, eternal and all good, means he does not fall in the same category as you or I do, so by what foundation are you claiming that God's laws are arbitrary, whimsical, or fanciful?

By the definitions of those words. Gaud's laws are not necessarily written based on what's harmful; Gaud forbids some behavior for no apparent reason other than personal preference or to illustrate a concept, and he changes his mind constantly about who to kill for man's wickedness. Based on what the bible says about him, his rules are chosen arbitrarily in the vast majority of cases. He just forbids behaviors he finds icky, it seems.

Quote:Also, how is this different from when you,follow the rules of a society, that as you say are "subjective"?

The rules of my society don't condone genocide, rape, or slavery, which means that my society causes objectively less harm than the Jews did during Bible times, which makes my society's morality objectively better by a measurable standard (human rights and quality of life).

Quote:Also, according to your world view where it "neither [has] an intended purpose nor a proper function " all view points have the same merit. They don't have any worth because they are all man made. Your idea of my views is meaningless. People fight and kill for meaningless purposes. The death and life of a person is meaningless. Joy, Happiness, kindness, fun, anger none of it means anything. There is no meaning to life and nothing anyone comes up with will give it meaning.

No. Some view points are aligned with the facts of reality, and some are contrary to them. View points that go against the facts have objectively less merit than view points that agree with them.

Quote:So in your world view do people have the same amount of worth? If they do why don't you regard everyone with the same amount of respect? If they don't, how do you measure their worth?

Sure, everyone's "worth" the same, but not everyone shares the same level of respectability.

Quote:The only meaning that does exist is metaphysical.

Baseless assertion.

(March 22, 2015 at 10:35 am)vorlon13 Wrote: And a related question:

Why don't more christers try following Jesus instead of just beseeching atheists to do it ?

When's the last time the christers went and zorched a Fig Newton display at Kroger ?

I made a similar comment, recently, in another thread, "Are you out of the closet?"

where I observed that for all Christians think Atheists are "attacking" their religion,
there are an astonishing number of Atheists who are truly AFRAID to "come out" with their Atheism
to Theist families, spouses, employers/coworkers, communities.

Not because they are ashamed;

...but because they know many Theists feel quite entitled to judge, ostracize, criticize and badger non-believers...

..and because they dread trying to make illogical Theists engage FAIRLY in a logical argument.


It is remarkable to me that Jesus allowed people to CHOOSE for themselves whether or not to follow Him,
but so many self-professed Christians feel, to varying degrees, quite justified in not minding their own business
when it comes to other people's personal beliefs, or lack thereof.

Some Theists get downright offended, in many instances, if you don't basically convert, then and there,
and be ashamed for not having done so, previously.

They are the type of Christians who might  try to couch it in terms like,

"Well, a GOOD Christian wouldn't WANT to put their lamp under a shade...they'd want to let their light shine!"

...but its' basically an excuse to insist that if you don't profess your faith TO THEM,
then you must not be a Christian.

And if you are not a Christian....well, then.  You are simply wrong and bad and dirty and confused.

I want Christians should point out where in the Bible, Jesus was described as instructing His followers to badger, intrude upon, and demand justification from suspected non-believers.

Because I can't think of any instance where He did so.

For that matter, I want Christians to point out where, in the New Testament,
Jesus was quoted as having unequivocally instructed His followers
to take His teachings, as He gave them unto us,
go out into the many kingdoms of the world,
and endeavor to pass said teachings into the Civil Lawbooks of men,
so that all will be compelled to live according to His teachings,
whether they chose to become Followers, or not...

....because I can't recall Jesus saying anything even remotely close to that, either.

Again, I remember that Jesus allowed each individual to choose.

Yes, He did warn what the wages of sin were, in the afterlife, that is true...

...but I don't recall Him coercing anyone to convert, with consequences in THIS life, THIS plane of existence.

I don't recall Him twisting anyone's arm with legal manoeuvrings.   Just the opposite, actually.

And that's why His followers want Jesus to get in line behind them, because on all those issues you've noted, they know better than Him.

Well said MTL!

What irks me the most is the obvious assumption by some Christians that they are right, and we are wrong. Further, that we know we are wrong. God is standing right in front of us, and we're denying it's existence. To someone so brainwashed as to see God literally everywhere, in a tree, in a car, in a dead child, of course it will be "obvious" to them. But to someone not programmed to respond in such a simplistic way, there is no such thing to see.

Of course there's the tu quoque waiting for any statement about even a subset of theists. But very few atheists categorically claim they are simply right and there's no possibility they are wrong, and that's still only among strong and not weak atheists. The tu quoque fails utterly against the latter.

And of course, this highlights the particularly irritating false dichotomy that either God doesn't exist, or he exists and we'd instantly worship him. If I want to make one point to Christians such as this (I'm very glad to say they are not all like this) it's that people can have an actual objection to the idea of worship itself, or with the worship of an particular thing.

and it's not the 'Bible God' they see, it's the sanitized, defanged, emasculated, touchy feelie, blow dried god they've made up that they see everywhere

(March 22, 2015 at 9:57 am)Chad32 Wrote: Jesus does act better than Yahweh. Which really isn't saying a whole lot. It's like saying guy A is an asshole, but at least he's not a complete psychopath like guy B is. Although you still have people saying guy A is guy B showing his nicer side. Which in the end still isn't all that great.

jesus told everyone to love eachother and not judge whats wrong with that ?

(October 18, 2015 at 10:31 pm)Rekeisha Wrote:  
Also, I can't say that I am familiar with Mario Puzzo's work. I haven't seen any of the Godfathers but I have a slight understanding of the premise of the story. Why do you say Abraham's story is like this?

Because it's on the same lines as some Mafia boss enforcing his authority by making a brutal demand. I thought, I made that perfectly clear. And it's not outside my perception. It's exactly as I perceive that story to be.

(October 19, 2015 at 7:54 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(March 22, 2015 at 9:57 am)Chad32 Wrote: Jesus does act better than Yahweh. Which really isn't saying a whole lot. It's like saying guy A is an asshole, but at least he's not a complete psychopath like guy B is. Although you still have people saying guy A is guy B showing his nicer side. Which in the end still isn't all that great.

jesus told everyone to love eachother and not judge whats wrong with that ?

Yes, he said love thy neighbor, and judge not lest ye be judged. He also said slaves obey your masters, even the cruel ones. It's better to tie a millstone around someone's neck and throw them into the sea, than let them lead anyone away from god. He also said thoughts were as bad as actions, and told his followers to give away all their possessions, including the shirts off their backs if asked, because the world was going to end within their lifetimes. Also apparently you can go to hell just from having a good life on earth, as was the case of a rich man who found himself there.

If you think Jesus never said anything that could be considered wrong, read the NT again.