(October 21, 2015 at 12:26 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 21, 2015 at 12:13 am)jenny1972 Wrote: well i think the hadith that created Sunni and Shiite division is one of the corrupted hadiths that is not from God since it has caused so much human suffering and sin ( such as killing people and many other related sins that come from war ) but i understand there is a lot of social pressure to remain in your religion and believe as those around you believe sometimes the internet is a good way to share ideas with other people  change comes slowly

I was believer in God without religion for about 5 years. It's only been about a year I've became Muslim again.

If I didn't believe in the specific Islam, I would still believe some where on this earth, there is a person who is guided by God and guides others,  even if there is no present religion centered around him.

In other words, the rational that there is guidance and a Guide to be is unquestionable now. But the manifestation and emphasis on the guide, makes sense to me through revelation and Prophethood of a Prophet. And the safeguarding and continuation of the leadership of such a Prophet makes sense.

The fact that God is not sending Prophets with miracles in this day and age, tells me, there must be standing proof for a Prophet in the past. And I don't see any religion arguing for a miracle that stands and the book emphasizes on aside from the eloquence and sublime uniqueness of the Quran, and it's height in literature, and it's challenge to all humanity to bring a Surah like it.

Aside from that, some wonders have opened up about Suratal Fatiha and why it's been called the 7 mathani, and it's relationship to Islam, Quran, and Ahlulbayt (Mohammad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain and the 9 Imams from the offspring of Hussain)

The thing is the Quran explains the shia-sunni issue clearly. The hadiths just fill in the details (ie. the names of the Successors) and emphasized on it clearly (as in the case of ghadeer declaration).

This year there is somethings that have opened to me that is hard to put into words.

well the issue of the successor is what all the stupid fighting is over and thats based an a hadith that noone knows for sure who even wrote where it came from  if its accurate or from God couldve been influenced by the devil as far as anyone knows but religion is what it is ......

you do not need any religion to know God and have a relationship with God and God can show you the truth directly not through any ancient history book . thats all any of them are is history books you know that right ? dont worship an ancient book dont worship a religion that is flawed worship GOD just clear your mind of all that and just start fresh and open your mind to whatever God chooses to fill your mind with and guide you directly . all religions should be thrown into a big fire and humanity will be happy and live in peace start with yourself , let religon go and focus on God instead.

This year there is somethings that have opened to me that is hard to put into words. i would love to know more about that and how God is inspiring you He will help you articulate it just ask Him to help you do that you can private message me anytime or there is a thread called 'personal relationships with deities' you can talk about it in that thread its under Religion

Me being an atheist is really only a preemptive estimate to my belief in "God".

Any particular person may mean basically anything by the term "God". So I can't tell if I'm an atheist with regard to whatever that specific idea may be or not until I've heard it. Chances are, I will be, but not necessarily. These are the three scenarios I have encountered, in order of frequency:

1) The definition I'm given is incoherent. I have no idea what the person is talking about. Neither, I suspect, do they.

2) The definition instantly puts "God" outside the scope of science, making it untestable and unfalsifiable. No one can know anything about this "God", including the person talking to me, although of course they will usually claim to anyway. Like all the other infinity of unfalsifiable things that "could" exist, I have no reason to think that it actually does exist until I have evidence. And the possibility of evidence has been excluded by definition.

3) Something that blatantly already exists is being labelled "God" like nature, or the universe. I believe in this "God" although I see no particular point in labelling it as such.

If anyone ever manages to define God in a way that is testable and falsifiable, in the whole of my lifetime, and this becomes anything like the accepted definition, I will be stunned out of my stupid pants.

(October 20, 2015 at 9:48 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 9:45 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Kind of like how you don't believe in FSM but at the same time you do. 

Show me a forum devoted to people "without belief in FSM" and get together to reassure themselves they are rational and that there is no proofs of FSM and no basis to faith in FSM. Go ahead. I'm waiting. Then you might have an argument.

Show me a society where the majority of the population believes in the FSM, try to get everyone else to believe in it too and try to change the laws to reflect their own personal beliefs at the expense of everyone else.

Then I'll show you a forum full of people without belief in the FSM.

Mystic Knight not only can't handle the concept that God might not exist, but also the concept that people can even genuinely doubt its existence.

I don't see anyone demanding that "lacking a belief in an invisible trap just outside my door, which just appeared, and which will cause me to die in exactly 23 hours after I walk through it" is a relationship with that trap, or that the trap must exist for me to even conceive of it.

(October 21, 2015 at 12:53 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 21, 2015 at 12:42 am)Losty Wrote: I only mean that no-god will not punish you for not worshipping his non existent self.

And I am interested just... well just because I am. It's all good you don't have to answer the question.

And what if human mind is hardwired to believe in praise/value/morality is all spiritual and linked to a Creator and higher power?  What if the belief in free-will requires us to believe in a soul? What if believe in a perpetual identity has been hardwired with a belief in a soul? 

Should we be doubting we are a perpetual identity, or that any of our actions are praiseworthy or of value or that we are of value, or what if it seems that all these are delusions with the no god?

What then? Go insane - or live without these beliefs in some sort of miracle fashion?

What if a frog had wings? It wouldn't have to hop.

What is the point in asking what if?
Either your what if is not true, or there are millions of people who are not human. If your what if is not true, then what do you gain from asking the question?

It really does piss me off when they make assertions like that.

"You are as capable of imagining what God might be like as I am... therefore we are both Believers!!"

No, idiot, I'm capable of imagining dragons (good band!), too; it doesn't mean I'm so fucking delusional as to think they're real.

Hopefully, you're as adragonistic as I am... but if you're not, then pretty much everyone else on earth would say you're mentally ill.

But under identical circumstances, if you have a holy book about gods, then all of a sudden you're "deeply insightful into the nature of the universe".

Get the fuggoutta here with that bullshit.

Or else, some humans are hardwired for (or vulnerable to) superstition. That's a lot simpler, eh?

Clearly, we can't stop them, nor are we demanding they stop. We just draw the line when they start hurting people.

I may use "adragonistic" as an internet handle, or a password, or something, in the future. I wonder if I'm more of an atheist or an adragonist. Tough call.

I'm picturing being surrounded by a culture full of people who assured me that (various kinds of, since they can't seem to agree on anything about the nature of God except that he's really, really interested in how and when and why I screw) dragons were everywhere, yet invisible and undetectable, unless you first believe in dragons, in which case you will feel them and have a personal relationship with them. Statues of dragons everywhere, Temples of the Great Wyrm on every fourth street corner, "In Smaug We Trust" on my money and government buildings. Disparaging comments about the pesky scientists who try to claim there really aren't any dragons...

A dragon's about to eat you! Wow, that was close. Oh no, another one! Wow you're so lucky, another dragon killed it just in time.

Look out...

I'd love to see through a theist's eyes for a few minutes, as the world they often describe sounds nothing at all like the one I live in. It sounds more like the scenario I describe above, with angels and demons and shit running around everywhere.

(October 21, 2015 at 2:19 am)robvalue Wrote: A dragon's about to eat you! Wow, that was close. Oh no, another one! Wow you're so lucky, another dragon killed it just in time.

Look out...

I'd love to see through a theist's eyes for a few minutes, as the world they often describe sounds nothing at all like the one I live in. It sounds more like the scenario I describe above, with angels and demons and shit running around everywhere.

If you genuinely want to know how they think, read This Present Darkness  and Piercing the Darkness  by Frank Peretti. They're evangelical Christian books about the war between the invisible demons and angels (the latter empowered by Prayer Warriors, who help the angels fight harder, or not, in order to save the humans they're protecting), engaged in what they call "spiritual warfare". The books are actually somewhat decent, as sci-fi... except they're not science fiction  to the evangelicals.

On that note, I'm off to bed. Have to drive to St. Louis in about five hours from now.