(October 21, 2015 at 6:28 am)robvalue Wrote: Did someone really write that gay creatures can't reproduce?

That's just factually wrong. Conflating sexual acts with sexuality yet again, I suppose.

again please professor explain

The hammer of homosexuality ???


I've got your hammer of homosexuality right here.

Mispost.

(October 21, 2015 at 5:08 am)loganonekenobi Wrote: So I'm curious.  How exactly would the Christian "confront" the homosexual in a loving way that is not full of hate and bigotry?

One, 'confrontation' need only happen if solicited. If a gay person was looking for a Relationship with God. Then a step through scripture that shows the only sex allowed under God's law is through the covenant of a sanctified marriage.

Then we establish scripturally that a sanctified marriage can only happen between a man and woman. Then we identify that all other sexual experiences (even those imagined) fall under the same category of Sexual sin. Next we establish those who embrace, and love their sexual sin, can not have eternal life with God, but only those who repent of their sexual sin. Finally we explain that gay people are not being singled out specifically, nor is being gay the unforgivable sin as some religious zelots might think. it is on the same level as all other sexual sin which is a pretty big deal in of it self and needs to be repented of.

Quote:I'm trying to picture this scene and if it actually happens in real life.  Honestly has anyone seen such a "confrontation" that did't end in some sort of damage?

The only 'damage' that might occour is from someone who's personality identity is manifest only through their sexual preference. But that is true with anyone who's complete identity is completely wrapped up in just one thing they do, and then it is taken away.

Like the parent who only lives for their kids and they leave home or the guy who works the same job for 60+ years and is forced to retire and dies two weeks later. (My city's mayor for example/America's longest sitting mayor) died the night after of dinner in his name. He was torn up beyond all reason that he at 90 something was not re-elected. Point being the man's whole reason for living was tied to his job/the one thing he saw himself to be, and when that was gone he was devastated, and shortly there after he was gone.

This for obvious reasons is not a good thing when ever it's done. We are all more than the one thing we want or like to do. To allow ourselves to be shackled by just one facet of our lives is foolishness. We are or can be so much more than our jobs, sexual orientations, or social standings. It is only when we tied our self worth to something like the number of friends or likes we have on a social media site, or sexual prefrence can "damage" even be possible. That is a greater sickness (Giving people control over your own ability to identify self worth) than those who maliciously seek to destroy a persons self worth. Why? Because attacking someone else to build one's own esteem is a primal guttural action that a 4 year old takes part in without thought or evil behind his intentions. While self identifying with one aspect of your life is tied to personal pride, and in essence 'the damage' is only damage to one's own pride, but because we cultivate vain behavior in this culture this damage can manifest itself physically. I would seriously question ANY culture that forces one to identify themselves solely on the bases of being apart of that culture.

Other examples of finding self worth by cultural identification on a large scale would be North Koreans, Nazis, Cubans, Cold war era USSR. All of these people were brain washed into fierce loyality for their country and unable to separate their cultural identity from who they themselves were. A insult to the cause or a critical view toward a social policy was a direct insult to the indivisual. Sound familiar? I know for a fact that if we went into North Korea and wiped out the standing dictatorship, those men women and children who did not fight to the death would kill themselves for allowing that to happen. That's more than just dying for a cause/what you believe in. That is not being able to live with yourself because what your whole life is about is now over and because you do not want to live any other way elect to die than change/face shame and critisim.
Again sound familiar?

from who

Quote:I haven't in fact i just read an article about parents that beat their children to get them to confess their sins.  In one such article the beating was fatal. a pastor beat his son for having a boyfriend.  Not feeling the love on that one Jesus.

I just read an article how parents never beat or disciplined their kid in any way (aside from taking stuff away from him and just trying to 'reason' with him) and he killed 1/2 a dozen people while driving in a drunken rage, and avoided prosecution because the parents did not discipline him properly.

Point? Aside from showing that either extreme can both have deadly consenquences, like you none other than offer a red herring.

Quote:This is the real problem of the Christain doctrine of "kill those who dont follow the way"

Book Chapter and verse please.
(of the Christian death doctrine)

Quote:I hear the Chistian say "do you see any hate i haven given in this forum?" but that's on a forum what happens on the street?

I can promise you that I live my life 'on the street' in absolute accordance to everything I talk about here. (Even when no one is looking)

Quote:When the high minded ideals hit reality what comes out of the Christian mouth is not love on this subject.  If this forum does nothing else i hope it changes that.

I don't know how familiar you are with forums, but the unregulated exchange of ideas in a place like this, it is FAR FAR easier to say whatever is on your mind/in your heart in complete anonymity than when one is under the watchful eye of friends and family.

(October 10, 2015 at 4:06 am)loganonekenobi Wrote: I had a thought (this is dangerous I know).

to the Bible homosexuality is a sin.  A sin meaning that it is a choice by the offending human.... not the force of God.

So if that be the case then homosexuality is in no part biological since that would be God's doing.

as far as I know we as humans do not purposely align the fetus to be a certain gender or sexual orientation. Not yet anyway (Gatica!)

Yet there is some growing evidence that sexual orientation is at least in part biological.

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/...idence.htm

now i'm not saying it's conclusive by any means but the evidence is getting stronger in this direction.

By that logic then God is at least in some way responsible for homosexuality.

If that also be the case then this is strong evidence that homophobic men wrote the Bible.  A God of any reasonable thought would not create something then tell others to destroy it unless that god was truly evil.

Now  I make the connection to gay marriage and it seems a lot more clear why the Christians are against any recognition of any sort of gay rights.  It would undermine the very idea that the Bible is the word of God.  which of course we fully understand.

Please give me your thoughts on this matter and maybe give me different directions to explore on this subject.

I would have absolutely no issue in saying Homosexuality is biological nor would I have any issue saying it is psychological or a mixure of both, (Just not genetic) because without a doubt their is a driving force behind it. One that a person could get lost in.

But, again. How is that different than any other sin?

Your whole argument whether you know it or not is prefaced on Homosexuality being the unforgivable sin. It's not, get over yourselves. It is a sexual sin, just like any other sexual sin/hetrosexual. That said If their was a sin scale sexual sin ranks just under unforgivable, so it is still pretty serious, but it is a sub set of sinful things WE ALL Deal with every day! The only difference is forgiveness can be found for those willing to identify and admit their sin.

That what atonement and repentance is. We do not have to over come our sin/lead sinless lives in order to find the save Grace Christ died to provide. However we must be willing to honestly identify sin in our lives and turn our hearts from it. Not want to sin. Hate our sin. That is why we must not legitimize or try and make excuses for our sin/because we will never turn from it.

Even Paul Himself in Romans 7 says he can not ever stop sinning. yet he is still saved because he identifies the sin in his life and turns his heart from it. Which can not happen if we try and justify sin under the title of 'natural behavior.' Natural does not equal righteous behavior. Righteousness is what we need for eternal life, and we can only get that through atonement because we are all guilty of sin

(October 21, 2015 at 1:21 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 10, 2015 at 4:06 am)loganonekenobi Wrote: I had a thought (this is dangerous I know).

to the Bible homosexuality is a sin.  A sin meaning that it is a choice by the offending human.... not the force of God.

So if that be the case then homosexuality is in no part biological since that would be God's doing.

as far as I know we as humans do not purposely align the fetus to be a certain gender or sexual orientation. Not yet anyway (Gatica!)

Yet there is some growing evidence that sexual orientation is at least in part biological.

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/...idence.htm

now i'm not saying it's conclusive by any means but the evidence is getting stronger in this direction.

By that logic then God is at least in some way responsible for homosexuality.

If that also be the case then this is strong evidence that homophobic men wrote the Bible.  A God of any reasonable thought would not create something then tell others to destroy it unless that god was truly evil.

Now  I make the connection to gay marriage and it seems a lot more clear why the Christians are against any recognition of any sort of gay rights.  It would undermine the very idea that the Bible is the word of God.  which of course we fully understand.

Please give me your thoughts on this matter and maybe give me different directions to explore on this subject.

I would have absolutely no issue in saying Homosexuality is biological nor would I have any issue saying it is psychological or a mixure of both, (Just not genetic) because without a doubt their is a driving force behind it. One that a person could get lost in.

But, again. How is that different than any other sin?

Your whole argument whether you know it or not is prefaced on Homosexuality being the unforgivable sin. It's not, get over yourselves. It is a sexual sin, just like any other sexual sin/hetrosexual. That said If their was a sin scale sexual sin ranks just under unforgivable, so it is still pretty serious, but it is a sub set of sinful things WE ALL Deal with every day! The only difference is forgiveness can be found for those willing to identify and admit their sin.

That what atonement and repentance is. We do not have to over come our sin/lead sinless lives in order to find the save Grace Christ died to provide. However we must be willing to honestly identify sin in our lives and turn our hearts from it. Not want to sin. Hate our sin. That is why we must not legitimize or try and make excuses for our sin/because we will never turn from it.

Even Paul Himself in Romans 7 says he can not ever stop sinning. yet he is still saved because he identifies the sin in his life and turns his heart from it. Which can not happen if we try and justify sin under the title of 'natural behavior.' Natural does not equal righteous behavior. Righteousness is what we need for eternal life, and we can only get that through atonement because we are all guilty of sin

(October 21, 2015 at 1:21 pm)Drich Wrote: But, again. How is that different than any other sin?

I'm always amazed by the bedroom fixation of religion. Not only christianity, but all monotheists. Must be envy of some sorts.

(October 21, 2015 at 1:21 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 10, 2015 at 4:06 am)loganonekenobi Wrote: I had a thought (this is dangerous I know).

to the Bible homosexuality is a sin.  A sin meaning that it is a choice by the offending human.... not the force of God.

So if that be the case then homosexuality is in no part biological since that would be God's doing.

as far as I know we as humans do not purposely align the fetus to be a certain gender or sexual orientation. Not yet anyway (Gatica!)

Yet there is some growing evidence that sexual orientation is at least in part biological.

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/...idence.htm

now i'm not saying it's conclusive by any means but the evidence is getting stronger in this direction.

By that logic then God is at least in some way responsible for homosexuality.

If that also be the case then this is strong evidence that homophobic men wrote the Bible.  A God of any reasonable thought would not create something then tell others to destroy it unless that god was truly evil.

Now  I make the connection to gay marriage and it seems a lot more clear why the Christians are against any recognition of any sort of gay rights.  It would undermine the very idea that the Bible is the word of God.  which of course we fully understand.

Please give me your thoughts on this matter and maybe give me different directions to explore on this subject.

I would have absolutely no issue in saying Homosexuality is biological nor would I have any issue saying it is psychological or a mixure of both, (Just not genetic) because without a doubt their is a driving force behind it. One that a person could get lost in.

But, again. How is that different than any other sin?

Your whole argument whether you know it or not is prefaced on Homosexuality being the unforgivable sin. It's not, get over yourselves. It is a sexual sin, just like any other sexual sin/hetrosexual. That said If their was a sin scale sexual sin ranks just under unforgivable, so it is still pretty serious, but it is a sub set of sinful things WE ALL Deal with every day! The only difference is forgiveness can be found for those willing to identify and admit their sin.

That what atonement and repentance is. We do not have to over come our sin/lead sinless lives in order to find the save Grace Christ died to provide. However we must be willing to honestly identify sin in our lives and turn our hearts from it. Not want to sin. Hate our sin. That is why we must not legitimize or try and make excuses for our sin/because we will never turn from it.

Even Paul Himself in Romans 7 says he can not ever stop sinning. yet he is still saved because he identifies the sin in his life and turns his heart from it. Which can not happen if we try and justify sin under the title of 'natural behavior.' Natural does not equal righteous behavior. Righteousness is what we need for eternal life, and we can only get that through atonement because we are all guilty of sin

Please please please do not ever repeat this garbage to anyone. This is disgusting. Sin is not a real thing, but if there was ever anything that I considered sin it would be this. You have no idea the type of damage you can do with words like this. Especially to those who are young and/or vulnerable.

I can agree that to live as a Christian one must abide by its tenets. Obviously any sex outside of

marriage is bad (for the Christian). If that was the only time the "Christian" ever bothered the
homosexual then this conversation would not have occurred.
There wouldn't be such a outrage against the hate crimes committed against people that are just born
different
.
If what you say is correct then you are not part of that crowd and that is good. However, you live
in the same reality that I do. You know what happens to people who are different.

I can pull out verse and chapter but we've done this dance before. you will just point out that
those laws do not apply. Good sez I. Now tell your fellow Christians that. It's one thing to be
against so called sexual sin and maybe vote in the way you feel. At that point its up to the
democratic process come what may. It's entirely another thing when people are harassed, injured, or
killed for reasons that harms no other except YOUR god.

As for evaluating self worth, your statements sound very Buddhist to me so I approve. However sexual
desire is primal and written into our species long before cultural worth. So im not on board with
comparing job to sexual desire. to drop what is intrinsic to ones primal needs totally is to court
insanity. I agree with moderation (Socrates said as much) but total denial of primal instinct is
ludicrous.

my point about the parents killing children. let me deliver that a little differently.
the boy in a drunken rage was not indoctrinated in believing that driving drunk was okay and likely
regrets killing those people. The parents were taught that beating children to death was okay
(Proverbs 22:15 “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far
from him.”),(Deuteronomy 21:18-21King James Version). These parents also don't feel bad about beating
a sinful child because their god says it's okay. I know... no old testement Jews, but again tell the
dead that. None of these people none of these children are red herrings. where were the "real" (if
you say these are not real xtians) Christians to prevent these tragedies.

Homosexuality is but one issue that the religious claim to be right. In so doing some take this
righteousness to justify harm. If there truely was loving god would it not give the truely righteous
the power to stop or at least stand against such atrocities especialy evil acts done in the name of
that god? Not just a few times but everytime. This is your god after all right?

There are atheist and those of other faiths that have only the power to know right from wrong and
stand against these problem... no god required.

To those who are not part of the fold a "sin" is harm to another real entity.

If i am understanding correctly, the Christian mind set is that we are just low life abominations
made by God. We are born to do nothing but sin and hurt. Is that about right?
if so then my former questions still stand firm not just on homosexuality but on every human aspect.

Is God cruel?
Does God make mistakes?
Is the bible just a book written by primitive men?

Holy fuck Jesus.

Why should anyone care what is a "sin"? What does it even mean? It upsets God? It makes him sad, cross, angry, perplexed, jealous, withdrawn and other very human emotions?

It goes against his "purpose"? I thought we were meant to have free will, yet we have to do things exactly as he wants or else he starts crying?

If there is a god, hurting his feelings should be the least of anyone's concerns. If you really think you are worshipping something so petty that it would take away your eternal privileges because you did something that he finds a bit irritating, then your God is nothing more than a superpowered spoiled little brat.