(October 22, 2015 at 2:57 pm)alpha male Wrote: Uh...becuase you wouldn't have any of those good things without god.

Prove it!!

(October 22, 2015 at 2:57 pm)alpha male Wrote: If you cared that much about starving people you'd be doing something about it instead of posting on this forum.

(October 22, 2015 at 2:57 pm)alpha male Wrote: God didn't tell you to be indifferent. By all means feels free to devote your life to reducing the suffering in others.

Who says we don't?

(October 22, 2015 at 2:57 pm)alpha male Wrote: How twisted is it to use the suffering of people you don't really give a shit about to make an argument against a being that you don't believe exists?

How do you know we don't care about those people?
And to you, using a imaginary being to make the lives of those people more miserable seems fair yet protesting against it is somehow "twisted"?

(October 22, 2015 at 2:57 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(October 22, 2015 at 1:09 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: So Thanksgiving will be here in 30 days. I have food. I have clothes. I have a place to live. I have my health, such as it is. I have my mind, such as it is.  Even if I were a believer, give me one good reason why I should thank god for there things.

Uh...becuase you wouldn't have any of those good things without god.

Quote:My problem with thanking god for the good things in my life is that there are people who don't have these things and the Christian answer to the children starving in India is not satisfying. I say this because if it's god providing my food then it's also god who's not providing food for the peole who are starving. Think of a father who has ten children but only feeds two of them and expects those two to be thankful even  while they watch their siblings starve.

If you cared that much about starving people you'd be doing something about it instead of posting on this forum.

Quote:The Christian answer to this is to just be thankful and not worry about the people who god chose to not provide the basic necessities of life. I have a problem with that because I was taught as a Christian that I'm supposed to have love and compassion towards others. Now if it's god who told me to be compassionate, how can this same god turn around and tell me to be indifferent?  

God didn't tell you to be indifferent. By all means feels free to devote your life to reducing the suffering in others.

Quote:To that the Church tells me that if there were no starving people then we wouldn't have any opportunity to feel compassion. Don't even bother to come in here with that kind of bull shit. You have to have a really twisted mind to be satisfied with that. Either a twisted mind or one that has been programmed not to think to deeply about an all powerful god ruling over a world such as ours.

How twisted is it to use the suffering of people you don't really give a shit about to make an argument against a being that you don't believe exists?

You do realize that you undermine your case for god when you use cuss words. "shit" just doesn't work in an evangelical context.

My point is that if it's god providing the things for which I should feel thankful, then it's god who is not providing for the people who don't have those things. It's ludicrous to tell me to go out and feed the poor in a world supposedly ruled by an all powerful god so thee should be no poor.

(October 22, 2015 at 2:48 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: Ok, so modern day Thanksgiving was proclaimed by Abraham Lincoln in an 1863 proclamation says that it is:

"…announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations are blessed whose God is the Lord… But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, by the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own… It has seemed to me fit and proper that God should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged, as with one heart and one voice, by the whole American people…"

My family and I have a modest meal on Wednesday of thanksgiving week and we spend Thanksgiving day and Friday serving meals at food shelters in Detroit.  We have time to give to those less fortunate than us and it is important to me to teach my kids that there are those in this world that do not have things as nice as we do and we can help them.  My kids LOVE working at the Gleaners food bank because the boxes they prepare are geared for kids their own age, so its special to them knowing they are helping other kids out.  

I agree that the hypocrisy of a great deal of religious folks is being thankful and a bit egotistical with what we have while forgetting the less fortunate.  I believe teaching my kids to be thankful does not mean saying a prayer and gorging on food and playing games but showing to them those that are less fortunate and being moved to do something about it.  In that way we humble ourselves and realize how good we have it and those that are less fortunate can be blessed by our willingness to help them and be thankful as well.

lkingpinl - - that's wonderful.  My family and I will be doing something very similar.  We need more folks to follow your example.  You know, it just struck me - - the theists that I respect in real life . . . I respect them because they behave like that.  They don't preach.  They don't judge.  They just ARE Christians who spend their time reaching out and helping others.     (I'm blue today.  Not because I'm sad.  Because I want our baseball team to win their playoff game tomorrow!)      

I totally agree. Is God responsible, or not?

If he is, you're basically saying, "Thank you for making us one of the families you decided to feed, and not one that you decide is going to starve."

It should be easily within his power to make sure everyone has enough to eat, and considering he decided to design us so that we die without food, it shouldn't be much to ask.

Kingpin: Good for you, that is wonderful Thank you for being so kind.

(October 22, 2015 at 4:25 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(October 22, 2015 at 2:48 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: Ok, so modern day Thanksgiving was proclaimed by Abraham Lincoln in an 1863 proclamation says that it is:

"…announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations are blessed whose God is the Lord… But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, by the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own… It has seemed to me fit and proper that God should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged, as with one heart and one voice, by the whole American people…"

My family and I have a modest meal on Wednesday of thanksgiving week and we spend Thanksgiving day and Friday serving meals at food shelters in Detroit.  We have time to give to those less fortunate than us and it is important to me to teach my kids that there are those in this world that do not have things as nice as we do and we can help them.  My kids LOVE working at the Gleaners food bank because the boxes they prepare are geared for kids their own age, so its special to them knowing they are helping other kids out.  

I agree that the hypocrisy of a great deal of religious folks is being thankful and a bit egotistical with what we have while forgetting the less fortunate.  I believe teaching my kids to be thankful does not mean saying a prayer and gorging on food and playing games but showing to them those that are less fortunate and being moved to do something about it.  In that way we humble ourselves and realize how good we have it and those that are less fortunate can be blessed by our willingness to help them and be thankful as well.

lkingpinl - - that's wonderful.  My family and I will be doing something very similar.  We need more folks to follow your example.  You know, it just struck me - - the theists that I respect in real life . . . I respect them because they behave like that.  They don't preach.  They don't judge.  They just ARE Christians who spend their time reaching out and helping others.     (I'm blue today.  Not because I'm sad.  Because I want our baseball team to win their playoff game tomorrow!)      

Thanks Fuzzy, but I feel it's the only way to be.  That's why I've said it many times, my favorite quote is "preach the gospel at all times and when necessary use words."  Far too many Christians are judgmental and have superiority complexes.  We are all the same, and I feel we have an obligation to help those where and whenever we can and be humble.  My kids learned far more about being thankful by being subjected to depravity and doing something to address it.  We do the same at Christmas.  Kids get a small thing, but we spend a lot of time volunteering and doing toys for tots stuff.  It's far more rewarding.

(October 22, 2015 at 4:52 pm)lkingpinl Wrote:

(October 22, 2015 at 4:25 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: lkingpinl - - that's wonderful.  My family and I will be doing something very similar.  We need more folks to follow your example.  You know, it just struck me - - the theists that I respect in real life . . . I respect them because they behave like that.  They don't preach.  They don't judge.  They just ARE Christians who spend their time reaching out and helping others.     (I'm blue today.  Not because I'm sad.  Because I want our baseball team to win their playoff game tomorrow!)      

Thanks Fuzzy, but I feel it's the only way to be.  That's why I've said it many times, my favorite quote is "preach the gospel at all times and when necessary use words."  Far too many Christians are judgmental and have superiority complexes.  We are all the same, and I feel we have an obligation to help those where and whenever we can and be humble.  My kids learned far more about being thankful by being subjected to depravity and doing something to address it.  We do the same at Christmas.  Kids get a small thing, but we spend a lot of time volunteering and doing toys for tots stuff.  It's far more rewarding.

Saw this on FB.  I loved it.  I'm still an atheist . . . but it's still pretty much exactly what I see and what I was trying to say.

Yep, precisely. That's why Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

(October 22, 2015 at 1:56 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Oh, exactly, Rhonda!!

For centuries, it has even seemed that Christians believed that god "took care of them" BECAUSE they believed and prayed and worshiped properly.   It was only proper to thank god for food and shelter and whatever else at every meal - you had to show your gratitude, you know, just in case the big guy in the sky would start feeling unappreciated.  And the "clean your plate and be grateful for it, because there are starving kids in Africa" line was almost a joke.

Well, what ABOUT the starving kids in Africa?  And many of them are believers too (thanks to many thousands of sleazy missionaries.  They pray.  Why are they starving?  Why does god give US food and not them?  And maybe the more important question is, why will millions of Xtians thank god for what they have on Thanksgiving, but never even consider searching out the people in need who live only a few blocks away?  (And don't give me the old line about tithing.  Putting money in the church basket is easy, and it's like paying money to go to a movie each week.)  Why would someone who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus not be driven to help the less fortunate? 

There is SO much of Xtianity that strikes me as egotistical.  "I have this powerful deity who is my own special friend and takes care of me - thank you God!!!"  but then "oh, don't give money to that beggar, he'll just spend it on booze", or "don't think about those kids over there who won't have Thanksgiving - they have a single Mother and she's a welfare queen".   AUGH!!!!!   

Actually that line of thinking is expressed in the Bible almost verbatim.  The Protestants deleted it from the Bible.  You can read it in the books of Wisdom and Sirach in the CEB.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=CEB

BTW, you should remember that the Jesus character never did do a damn thing for the Gentiles and he never gave the Jews any money either.

(October 22, 2015 at 5:01 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: Yep, precisely.  That's why Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I don't like gandhi as a person, but I do like some of the things he said. And on that note

https://youtu.be/WpYeekQkAdc

(October 22, 2015 at 2:58 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I can only speak for my community but the xtians here feed thousands over the thanksgiving and xmas holiday season and not just through the church. So do the non xtians. The problem is that after the holidays are over the giving stops. Money, food, clothing, it all seems to be forgotten when the season is done. But that doesn't stop the need. Our shelters stay packed until at least April. By that time the banks (food, cloths......) are bare bones.

Giving around the holidays is nice. Giving the year round is better. Giving thanks to a fairy tale is stupid! Not giving when you have the means is reprehensible!

It's OK to be charitable but the effort should be directed toward one's own family members.  The problem with charitable organizations is that they take the pressure off of the government to provide for the citizens.  Instead the politicians are free to spend tax money on their favorite projects and buddies.  If people were really serious about helping out the poor and disadvantaged they wouldn't give a penny to any charitable organization.  By continuing to do so they allow the government and businesses to continue to screw over everyone.  

If you want to help someone then directly help your extended family members who are in need.  You have a lot of them.