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RE: Here's why Creatards might be right
October 29, 2015 at 8:06 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 8:10 pm by jenny1972.)
(October 29, 2015 at 7:39 pm)Esquilax Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 7:32 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: yes obviously i do think thinking beings create universes if the universes in question are organized and the elements within the universe are cooperative and orderly i dont think organization results from unintelligent random chaos
Have you comprehended a single damn question you've been asked this entire time?
You were talking about your experiences, your observations of the world. I asked you whether your experiences showed you intelligent beings created universes; you were the one going on about observations, I just pointed out that for the importance you place on that, you certainly haven't observed the thing you believe happened. I was demonstrating the inconsistency of your position, but it seems that whenever anybody does that- and we've had oh so many opportunities to do so today- you just revert back to merely asserting your opinion and lying about what the alternative is.
You do realize that, don't you? You're flat out lying, no bones about it, when you continue to insist that we believe the universe arose from "random chaos." Why should anyone take an unrepentant, willfully ignorant liar seriously?
ive observed intelligent beings , humans , create complex things . of course ive never witnessed an intelligent being create a universe what human could witness such a thing have you ever witnessed the creation of a universe ?
(October 29, 2015 at 7:41 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 7:32 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: yes obviously i do think thinking beings create universes if the universes in question are organized and the elements within the universe are cooperative and orderly i dont think organization results from unintelligent random chaos
Is your universe creating deity organised and orderly?
If so, who created it?
If you are claiming there is a rule that everything that is organised and orderly requires an intelligent creator, the so does your god.
Unless you're going to break that rule for your god.
i dont know what intelligence created that intelligence
Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today  Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you will join us And the world will be as one - John Lennon
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also - Mark Twain
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RE: Here's why Creatards might be right
October 29, 2015 at 8:11 pm
(October 29, 2015 at 8:06 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 7:39 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Have you comprehended a single damn question you've been asked this entire time?
You were talking about your experiences, your observations of the world. I asked you whether your experiences showed you intelligent beings created universes; you were the one going on about observations, I just pointed out that for the importance you place on that, you certainly haven't observed the thing you believe happened. I was demonstrating the inconsistency of your position, but it seems that whenever anybody does that- and we've had oh so many opportunities to do so today- you just revert back to merely asserting your opinion and lying about what the alternative is.
You do realize that, don't you? You're flat out lying, no bones about it, when you continue to insist that we believe the universe arose from "random chaos." Why should anyone take an unrepentant, willfully ignorant liar seriously?
ive observed intelligent beings , humans , create complex things . of course ive never witnessed an intelligent being create a universe what human could witness such a thing have you ever witnessed the creation of a universe ?
If intelligent beings and complex things require a creator, who created your god?
Is the intelligent creator you claim exists, complex and intelligent?
If so, please explain why the rule that intelligent beings and complex things require a creator, but your god does not.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Here's why Creatards might be right
October 29, 2015 at 8:12 pm
(October 29, 2015 at 8:06 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 7:39 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Have you comprehended a single damn question you've been asked this entire time?
You were talking about your experiences, your observations of the world. I asked you whether your experiences showed you intelligent beings created universes; you were the one going on about observations, I just pointed out that for the importance you place on that, you certainly haven't observed the thing you believe happened. I was demonstrating the inconsistency of your position, but it seems that whenever anybody does that- and we've had oh so many opportunities to do so today- you just revert back to merely asserting your opinion and lying about what the alternative is.
You do realize that, don't you? You're flat out lying, no bones about it, when you continue to insist that we believe the universe arose from "random chaos." Why should anyone take an unrepentant, willfully ignorant liar seriously?
ive observed intelligent beings , humans , create complex things . of course ive never witnessed an intelligent being create a universe what human could witness such a thing have you ever witnessed the creation of a universe ?
(October 29, 2015 at 7:41 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Is your universe creating deity organised and orderly?
If so, who created it?
If you are claiming there is a rule that everything that is organised and orderly requires an intelligent creator, the so does your god.
Unless you're going to break that rule for your god.
i dont know what intelligence created that intelligence
I'm not asking you to name it.
I'm just asking if it also had to be created?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Here's why Creatards might be right
October 29, 2015 at 8:15 pm
(October 29, 2015 at 6:54 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 6:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You kidding with that one? Don't do it....you'll just be proving Esqui completely right in every particular.....
http://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking...is-no-god/
well if hes an atheist why should i value his opinion on a God that he admits he doesnt know ?
You're the one who quoted him, clearly out of ignorance as to his views. Perhaps you should explain your own motivations for such sloppy argumentation ... or at least your motivation for stopping your google searches where it suits you, rather than educating yourself by reading the entire work?
That's right, it's because you're not interested in learning, only in supporting your preconceived notions.
I feel sorry for you, and people like you, with your preset boundaries outside of which you're afraid to wander.
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RE: Here's why Creatards might be right
October 29, 2015 at 8:21 pm
(October 29, 2015 at 7:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No..I'm not....so go have that argument with someone who is? This response can actually fit for the vast majority of your posts. This has already been mentioned more than once. Help me help you to understand. Do you understand why it makes little sense to respond as you've been doing?
stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you on this issue neither one of us has any proof neither one of us was there during the big bang and neither of us have firsthand knowledge of the reality of what intelligence or lack of that created existence this debate is really very silly you have zero evidence and neither do i we are debating theories , yet you keep asking for evidence when you dont have any proof yourself so stop asking for it . you believe everything is just a result of a random happening and everything just happened to evolve for no reason i disagree i believe order comes from intelligent design not by accident .
Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you will join us And the world will be as one - John Lennon
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also - Mark Twain
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RE: Here's why Creatards might be right
October 29, 2015 at 8:27 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 8:32 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You -aren't- responding to me...that's the problem. Do you understand? You're ascribing beliefs to me, then demanding that I establish that those beliefs..which are not my own, are correct - as though this would be proof that -you- are either right or wrong....... It's idiotic.
Case in point:
Quote:you believe everything is just a result of a random happening and everything just happened to evolve for no reason
No, I don't...and I went into how things did evolve, very breifly, pages ago. So not only do I not believe this.....I've already explained my actual position. You have zero excuses.
So, maybe...respond to me...the next time you respond to me?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Here's why Creatards might be right
October 29, 2015 at 8:38 pm
(October 29, 2015 at 8:12 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 8:06 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: ive observed intelligent beings , humans , create complex things . of course ive never witnessed an intelligent being create a universe what human could witness such a thing have you ever witnessed the creation of a universe ?
i dont know what intelligence created that intelligence
I'm not asking you to name it.
I'm just asking if it also had to be created?
It only requires turtles- all the way down.
![[Image: turtles-all-the-way-down.png]](https://transversalinflections.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/turtles-all-the-way-down.png)
Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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RE: Here's why Creatards might be right
October 29, 2015 at 8:39 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 8:53 pm by jenny1972.)
(October 29, 2015 at 8:12 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 8:06 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: ive observed intelligent beings , humans , create complex things . of course ive never witnessed an intelligent being create a universe what human could witness such a thing have you ever witnessed the creation of a universe ?
i dont know what intelligence created that intelligence
I'm not asking you to name it.
I'm just asking if it also had to be created?
im not against the idea that God is also apart of a more complex system of intelligent creation .... but the concept of eternity is incomprehensible to the human mind and our understanding of time and space just might simply not understand an intelligent creator always existing but both are possible .
(October 29, 2015 at 8:27 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You -aren't- responding to me...that's the problem. Do you understand? You're ascribing beliefs to me, then demanding that I establish that those beliefs..which are not my own, are correct - as though this would be proof that -you- are either right or wrong....... It's idiotic.
Case in point:
Quote:you believe everything is just a result of a random happening and everything just happened to evolve for no reason
No, I don't...and I went into how things did evolve, very breifly, pages ago. So not only do I not believe this.....I've already explained my actual position. You have zero excuses.
So, maybe...respond to me...the next time you respond to me?
well im sorry if i assumed wrongly about you i apologize
Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you will join us And the world will be as one - John Lennon
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also - Mark Twain
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RE: Here's why Creatards might be right
October 29, 2015 at 8:44 pm
(October 29, 2015 at 8:39 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 8:12 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: I'm not asking you to name it.
I'm just asking if it also had to be created?
im not against the idea that God is also apart of a more complex system of intelligent creation .... but the concept of eternity is incomprehensible to the human mind and our understanding of time and space might just not understand an intelligent creator always existing either is possible
So, it's either 'turtles all the way down' (see post above this.
Or, a universe creating deity, with no evidence to believe it actually exists, (other than your argument from ignorance "I can't see how the universe could have come about via natural means, therefore, god") , that now you are claiming might have always existed.
Boy, for a universe creator that you claim we are unable to understand, you sure are giving it a lot of attributes.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Here's why Creatards might be right
October 29, 2015 at 8:44 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 8:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It's not often that someone overestimates human ignorance and incompetence. So kudos on that, I guess.
You haven't just assumed wrong about me, Jenny, you've assumed wrong about every scientific theory you've mentioned. You even assumed wrong about Hawkins. You continue to assume wrong about logic and reason. That's an impressively long list of things for you to get wrong and still think, somehow...that you're right. In that context...maybe your estimation of the depths of human ignorance has at least some backing...in yourself.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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