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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:03 am
(October 30, 2015 at 10:58 am)Irrational Wrote: (October 30, 2015 at 10:50 am)alpha male Wrote: It implies that I don't exist in any sense granting me rights.
You could program a computer to run a lifetime's thoughts through it's memory. If you pulled the plug on the computer partway through, no one would call you a murderer, because the computer did not have it's own independent thoughts.
They might call me a murderer if I did it to a sophisticated robot imbued with advanced level of thinking.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. We're not talking about a sophisticated robot imbued with advanced level of thinking. By analogy, you programmed every single thing this computer or robot would ever think. Every tiniest thought.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:05 am
(October 30, 2015 at 11:01 am)Rhythm Wrote: (October 30, 2015 at 10:55 am)alpha male Wrote: To say that god is evil for allowing suffering in humans implies that humans are persons or agents with rights to be free from suffering. That premise usually goes unstated. I'm saying that, in arguing that an omniscient creator precludes free will, even if successful you've just created another problem, i.e. humans no longer exist as independent persons with any rights. You win a battle but still lose the war. Perhaps you don't understand.......the people who bring this up to you...aren;t interested in that consequence. They're appealing to you, in the hopes that you would disagree with a logical consequence of your statements. In claiming that some war has been lost, it's clear that you agree that such a conception of human beings is negatively valued. You agree with us, but dissonance won't allow you to realize it.
LOL...that line of thinking isn't convenient, so we're not interested in it.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:10 am
It's not that the robot was programmed to do everything; it's that the programmer knew the robot would develop this murderous tendency as a part of its AI. If the programmer knew that, and built this robot that way, then he would be responsible for its actions, not the robot.
If we were created with "sin nature" as a consequence of disobedience, and the programmer of our human nature knew that this was the likely (or even possible) outcome, then it is capricious at best and malicious in reality that the programmer would blame us for disobedience.
The moral result of your religious mythology is that God blames us for the very basic nature of who we are, and says that the only way to be "saved" from the torments reserved for the disobedient is to become obedient and worshipful of the very creature who is to punish us for that disobedience. You are the one trying to have your cake and eat it, too; either we were made to be this way, in which case punishing us for our created nature is morally inconsistent, or we have free will, in which case punishing us for exercising it (or for not guessing which of the hundred holy books to which we have access was "The Right Answer" on how-to-obey) unless we are subserviant is to deny that same free will, making the Creator into a megalomaniacal tyrant. There's no way around the basic fact that saying "Obey me or else, because I am more powerful than you are" is immoral behavior by any being, even your concept of God.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:10 am
(October 30, 2015 at 10:55 am)alpha male Wrote: To say that god is evil for allowing suffering in humans implies that humans are persons or agents with rights to be free from suffering. That premise usually goes unstated. I'm saying that, in arguing that an omniscient creator precludes free will, even if successful you've just created another problem, i.e. humans no longer exist as independent persons with any rights. You win a battle but still lose the war.
Pretty sure if god was real and he tested your faith and he asked you to kill your own child more than likely you wouldn't do it.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:13 am
(October 30, 2015 at 11:10 am)dyresand Wrote: Pretty sure if god was real and he tested your faith and he asked you to kill your own child more than likely you wouldn't do it.
Yeah, my faith is weak and I'm also pretty sure I wouldn't do it. So, either I have free will, or god is basically writing a story, and we have the illusion of being real agents in it when we're really nothing more that parts of god's imagination.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:15 am
(This post was last modified: October 30, 2015 at 11:15 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 30, 2015 at 11:05 am)alpha male Wrote: LOL...that line of thinking isn't convenient, so we're not interested in it.
Here again you demonstrate that you have not read your article, nor do you have the slightest clue whats being discussed here, between us.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:16 am
(October 30, 2015 at 8:55 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: So.. you do not think that you are responsible for your actions under a Christian worldview? I would disagree.
Also, this seems to be more of an emotional issue for you, rather than rational. Should I be posting pictures of cuddly kittens.
If you just want to throw a melodramatic temper tantrum... I'm not really interested.
Well, you don't think god, who, according to the Christian world view, is s all powerful and all knowing, should be held accountable for his actions. So why should man, who know nothing and can do even less, be held accountable for things over which we have only limited control?
The Bible tells us that god hardened Pharaoh's heart. Yet Christians still find some kind of way to make Pharaoh responsible. By putting yourself in line with this worldview, you betray an inability to think either rationally or compassionately.
You claim to disagree with us but you don't look at the whole picture. And you don't address what we are saying. You just pick some little thing and disagree with it. That is dishonest.
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire
Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:20 am
(October 30, 2015 at 11:10 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: It's not that the robot was programmed to do everything; it's that the programmer knew the robot would develop this murderous tendency as a part of its AI. If the programmer knew that, and built this robot that way, then he would be responsible for its actions, not the robot. To whom would he be responsible? The analogy is inaccurate. The human is the creator god in the analogy, so he should be the only human. Their are no children for the robot to kill, or parents of those children to demand accountability.
Quote:There's no way around the basic fact that saying "Obey me or else, because I am more powerful than you are" is immoral behavior by any being, even your concept of God.
Judging by the meat aisle or insecticide aisle in the local store, that's what we humans do with other species. So, by your own standards, we're immoral. Why should we not then be judged?
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:21 am
(October 30, 2015 at 11:15 am)Rhythm Wrote: (October 30, 2015 at 11:05 am)alpha male Wrote: LOL...that line of thinking isn't convenient, so we're not interested in it.
Here again you demonstrate that you have not read your article, nor do you have the slightest clue whats being discussed here, between us.
So you're a bad communicator...not my problem, as I have plenty of other people to talk to. Later! 
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:26 am
-And all of this was preferable..to IDK, just picking any of the modifiers listed....in the article you provided, to resolve the issue of theological fatalism? Did you intend to do anything other than troll us?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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