Quote: You might feel justified in saying that, but you'd be wrong.

Commonplace among "believers" in bullshit.

(October 30, 2015 at 3:15 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(October 30, 2015 at 3:14 pm)Drich Wrote: Again no. Smith ran from persecution. To be persecuted is to remain solvent, to face your oppressors, to endure as Paul did, and not run from your home in arkansas to a remote part of the country so you can brain wash unchallenged.

Paul took on all challengers, Smith ran from them. You can be persecuted if you are not there.

Bullshit. The Mormons say he was persecuted and died for the faith. It was Paul who avoided execution. That's why nowhere in the Bible does it say he died for the faith.

Histroy says something different.

History says he was arrested for having 8 wives when state law only allowed you to have one.

Then he was shot and killed in prison with his brother by an angry mob. what incited the mob? a new paper artical that said smith was sleeping around with the wrong men wives and father several children with them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith

So religious persecution? Yes if polygamy and adultry are apart of your 'faith.' other wise no, no he was not persecuted for his beliefs. he always fled persectuation

(October 30, 2015 at 3:22 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(October 30, 2015 at 3:16 pm)Drich Wrote: Chapter 3 anyone?

People here seem more interested in discussing the reliability of what Paul said rather than what he meant. You should've noticed this by now.

So... that is why they are posting youtube videos of the reliablity of the 4 gospels (non of which Paul wrote) and trying to dismiss what he wrote by compaering him to a man/men who ran from those who would challenge their beliefs?

I saw this as you guys grasping for some topical objection, meaning you were out of legit things to dicsuss that is why I suggested chappter 3

The gospels don't even prove anything they are made up.

Redbeard: indeed, I've been over that point again and again. People are desperate to drag science down to the level of theology. They do this because theology cannot be elevated above making unfalsifiable statements.

It's ridiculous because science isn't out to make it a competition, that's the constant battle cry of theology. And it needs to stop it, because it's fucking embarrassing. Actually, keep it up theology. You're doing our work for us.

If anyone really thinks theology and science are comparable, they don't understand what one (or both) of those things are.

(October 30, 2015 at 3:38 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 30, 2015 at 3:15 pm)Irrational Wrote: Bullshit. The Mormons say he was persecuted and died for the faith. It was Paul who avoided execution. That's why nowhere in the Bible does it say he died for the faith.

Histroy says something different.

History says he was arrested for having 8 wives when state law only allowed you to have one.

Then he was shot and killed in prison with his brother by an angry mob. what incited the mob? a new paper artical that said smith was sleeping around with the wrong men wives and father several children with them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith

So religious persecution? Yes if polygamy and adultry are apart of your 'faith.' other wise no, no he was not persecuted for his beliefs. he always fled persectuation

So when Paul (you say, since we have no actual evidence that he was executed; I've been going along with your presumption because there was no point in debating that element, until now) was eventually captured and killed, after using his status as a Roman to get out of an earlier "kangaroo court", as you put it, he wasn't "running"?

It looks to me like the life of Joseph Smith, who could miraculously talk to angels and translate ancient Egyptian (which no one, then, could read), parallels nicely with that of Paul, even when the people got tired of that expanding cult and decided to do something about it:

Quote:The violent deaths of the Prophet Joseph Smith at the age of thirty-eight and his brother Hyrum Smith (age forty-four), Associate President and patriarch of the Church, dramatically ended the founding period of the LDS Church. On June 27, 1844, they were mobbed and shot while confined at Carthage Jail in Hancock County, in western Illinois. Climaxing more than two decades of persecution across several states, this event gave them an enduring place as martyrs in the hearts of Latter-day Saints.

These tensions coalesced around Joseph Smith. In addition to being prophet and President of the Church, he also served as mayor, commander of the Nauvoo Legion state militia, justice of the peace, and university chancellor. Non-Mormon fears of this concentration of powers were intensified by the Church's belief in the theocratic union of spiritual, economic, and political matters under the priesthood. This and other "unorthodox" doctrines, such as continuing revelation, temple ordinances for the living and the dead, new scripture, and plural marriage, further intensified political and economic rivalries.

Illinois anti-Mormons, perhaps assisted by old enemies from Missouri, joined with a handful of determined Mormon defectors within Nauvoo. Several had held high Church positions and, when excommunicated, fueled efforts to destroy Joseph Smith and the Church. [...]

However, threats of mob violence increased. In Warsaw and Carthage, newspapers called for extermination of the Mormons. On June 18, Joseph Smith mobilized his troops to protect Nauvoo. When Illinois governor Thomas Ford apparently sided with the opposition and ordered the Church leaders to stand trial again on the same charges, this time in Carthage, Joseph and Hyrum first considered appealing to U.S. President John Tyler, but then decided instead to cross the Mississippi and escape to the West. Pressured by family and friends who felt abandoned and who believed Joseph to be nearly invincible, he agreed to return and surrender; but he prophesied that he would be going "like a lamb to the slaughter" and would be "murdered in cold blood". Joseph urged Hyrum to save himself and succeed him as prophet, but Hyrum refused and accompanied his brother to Carthage.

(Bold emphasis my own; internal citations omitted.)

Source: http://www.pbs.org/americanprophet/martyrdom.html

Quote:So when Paul (you say, since we have no actual evidence that he was executed; I've been going along with your presumption because there was no point in debating that element, until now) was eventually captured and killed, after using his status as a Roman to get out of an earlier "kangaroo court", as you put it, he wasn't "running"?

The peter and paul martyrdom stories have nothing to back them up.  Their deaths are mentioned in 1 Clement (itself probably a second century forgery but that does not matter at the moment) but as you can see:

Quote:There was Peter who by reason of unrighteous jealousy endured not one
not one but many labors, and thus having borne his testimony went to
his appointed place of glory.

By reason of jealousy and strife Paul by his example pointed out the
prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in
bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in
the East and in the West, he won the noble renown which was the
reward of his faith,

Given the lurid details of how martyrs were ripped limb from limb in later xtian fantasies these two asswipes could have died of old age for all we can tell from "Clement's" comment.

(October 30, 2015 at 3:27 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I wasn't  that familiar with early LDS church history, so I looked up the death of Joseph Smith. I'm sure there was persecution, but it was not all one sided, and their is reasons why Mormons where driven out of states. In any case, it seems inaccurate, to say that Smith died because he believed himself a prophet.

Don't you see that similar things could be said of Paul? The difference is that we have a severe lack of information to go by when assessing the reliability of what a 2000-year-old man said about his own experiences.

With Joseph Smith, we have a much clearer picture.

(October 30, 2015 at 3:54 pm)dyresand Wrote: The gospels don't  even prove anything they  are made up.

via Imgflip Meme Maker

This is a study in Romans which is not apart of the 4 books of the gospel account...

(October 30, 2015 at 3:27 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I wasn't  that familiar with early LDS church history, so I looked up the death of Joseph Smith. I'm sure there was persecution, but it was not all one sided, and their is reasons why Mormons where driven out of states. In any case, it seems inaccurate, to say that Smith died because he believed himself a prophet.

I think he did not believe himself a prophet but a rather successful conman. He made that shit up.