(November 1, 2015 at 11:08 pm)Minimalist Wrote: British provocations began in 1763 but it is not like flipping on a light switch.  Independence seems to have caught hold for a significant number of Americans after Lexington and Concord.  Congress was still dithering when the British stormed Bunker (Breeds) Hill.

In your own opinion, were more Americans (ones in the actual fighting) fighting to keep their newfound wealth to themselves, or fighting to obtain political and social freedom from the British governmental system?

(November 1, 2015 at 11:03 pm)Combanitorics Wrote:

(November 1, 2015 at 10:56 pm)Chuck Wrote: Yes.  But many factors complicate that.

I suppose.  People strove to create the Soviet Union, and then enjoyed it while they had it.  This historical fact is complicated.

That depends on whom you asked, I should think.

(November 1, 2015 at 11:20 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 1, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Combanitorics Wrote: Why is intellectual bankruptcy often unavoidable in peace?  What, in your opinion, is the ultimate cause of intellectual bankruptcy?

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What did he say?  I have definitely heard reports by soldiers (my mother's brother in Vietnam) that war engenders a substantially altered state of consciousness.

I've never been in organized combat, but I was a firefighter in the Air Force and as such saw a few SHTF moments, where the balance between living and dying was pretty fine. I didn't have the time nor inclination to notice any paranormal stuff. I was too busy working on the problem at hand, taking charge of my own survival and where necessary the survival of my brotha firedogs.

I also survived another man's attempt to kill me in a fight, and there even more was I too busy with the matter at hand to pray (not that I would have, I was already an atheist) or notice ghosts, angels, etc.

Religious/Paranormal considerations totally aside, did these experiences "give you meaning" in any way beyond what meaning you already attached to your life?  As a personality or character, were these experiances extremely formative for you, or did you find that you yourself did not essentially change, including in your worldview?

Regarding your original question about Yugoslavia's dissolution and subsequent wars, it's my understanding that at its base was a nexus of ethnic and religious tensions, as opposed to national identities.

I do think that upstart nations can gain a sense of national identity through warfighting. I don't know enough about the current conditions in the Balkans to say that that is the case there, though.

I don't know why people fight.  The ones doing the actual fighting were poor farmers.

Frederick the Great once commented:  "If soldiers were to begin to think not one would remain in the army."

I think Fred was on to something.

(November 1, 2015 at 11:20 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I've never been in organized combat, but I was a firefighter in the Air Force and as such saw a few SHTF moments, where the balance between living and dying was pretty fine. I didn't have the time nor inclination to notice any paranormal stuff. I was too busy working on the problem at hand, taking charge of my own survival and where necessary the survival of my brotha firedogs.

I experienced the same when being a medic some 20 years ago. I've seen my share of bodies and the dying. I never once stopped to consider if they're going to heaven. Just the tragedy and unerlying banality of it. With time and experience even the tragedy vanished and only the banality stayed.

(November 1, 2015 at 11:23 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 1, 2015 at 11:03 pm)Combanitorics Wrote: I suppose.  People strove to create the Soviet Union, and then enjoyed it while they had it.  This historical fact is complicated.

That depends on whom you asked, I should think.

I suppose that there may be some people whom the Soviet Union didn't affect.  The Yugoslavs addressed in the book I'm reading were not among them, however.

(November 1, 2015 at 11:25 pm)Combanitorics Wrote:

(November 1, 2015 at 11:20 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I've never been in organized combat, but I was a firefighter in the Air Force and as such saw a few SHTF moments, where the balance between living and dying was pretty fine. I didn't have the time nor inclination to notice any paranormal stuff. I was too busy working on the problem at hand, taking charge of my own survival and where necessary the survival of my brotha firedogs.

I also survived another man's attempt to kill me in a fight, and there even more was I too busy with the matter at hand to pray (not that I would have, I was already an atheist) or notice ghosts, angels, etc.

Religious/Paranormal considerations totally aside, did these experiences "give you meaning" in any way beyond what meaning you already attached to your life?  As a personality or character, were these experiances extremely formative for you, or did you find that you yourself did not essentially change, including in your worldview?

They didn't change me too much. I'd already lived through the 1978 revolution in Iran, and that was for me the formative event in my life.

(November 1, 2015 at 11:17 pm)Combanitorics Wrote:

(November 1, 2015 at 11:06 pm)Gawdzilla Wrote: I fought war more interesting than peace. I don't prefer war to peace but I did enjoy fighting in a way.

The fighting itself, or some benefit you reaped from being part of the fight?  Was it about belonging to a group, or did it stem from gains resulting from the outcome of the conflict?

I started out with a 25-man team. After two years there were seven of us left. Two more died after I was flown out, and the other four died before they were forty years old. We were still more alive than 99% of the people on this planet.

(November 1, 2015 at 11:27 pm)abaris Wrote:

(November 1, 2015 at 11:20 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I've never been in organized combat, but I was a firefighter in the Air Force and as such saw a few SHTF moments, where the balance between living and dying was pretty fine. I didn't have the time nor inclination to notice any paranormal stuff. I was too busy working on the problem at hand, taking charge of my own survival and where necessary the survival of my brotha firedogs.

I experienced the same when being a medic some 20 years ago. I've seen my share of bodies and the dying. I never once stopped to consider if they're going to heaven. Just the tragedy and unerlying banality of it. With time and experience even the tragedy vanished and only the banality stayed.

Banality is defiantly the opposite of meaning.  I don't think the book refers to religious meaning, though.  I think it is talking about national, political, racial and human identity.  Religion only comes up in the discussion of the Yugoslavian conflict, since the area has a Muslim population.

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(November 1, 2015 at 11:29 pm)Gawdzilla Wrote:

(November 1, 2015 at 11:17 pm)Combanitorics Wrote: The fighting itself, or some benefit you reaped from being part of the fight?  Was it about belonging to a group, or did it stem from gains resulting from the outcome of the conflict?

I started out with a 25-man team. After two years there were seven of us left. Two more died after I was flown out, and the other four died before they were forty years old. We were still more alive than 99% of the people on this planet.

Because you experienced life in ways and at an intensity which the other 99% did not?

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(November 1, 2015 at 11:28 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 1, 2015 at 11:25 pm)Combanitorics Wrote: Religious/Paranormal considerations totally aside, did these experiences "give you meaning" in any way beyond what meaning you already attached to your life?  As a personality or character, were these experiances extremely formative for you, or did you find that you yourself did not essentially change, including in your worldview?

They didn't change me too much. I'd already lived through the 1978 revolution in Iran, and that was for me the formative event in my life.

I see.