(November 6, 2015 at 3:08 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(November 4, 2015 at 10:46 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Mozart, Bernini, Shakespeare, Newton, Lincoln... I think humans are noble, ingenious, and profound.

And then theres "Honey boo boo"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqvgoPMd7d8

And then there are the Kardashians and everyone one duck dynasty.

(November 6, 2015 at 1:03 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: This "we stuff" is the larger historic trend, that has seen humans go from owning each other, or genociding each other, to our current understanding that such matters aren't really the right thing to do.

Back in '83 I did some student work with a chick, a few years older than me. I made the foolish remark, there are no wars anymore. She was instantly apalled and I didn't get it at that moment.

There were no wars in Europe anymore, but that was about all. And 8 years later, there was a war in Europe. Right at my doorstep.

Believe you me. There will always be genocide when the need for dominance arises or when another scapegoat is needed. The wording is already there with certain politicians. Acts may follow if they come to power. We already had a genocide in the 90ies in Rwanda. It just wasn't in our immediate field of vision. That we in the West, generally, don't subscribe to it, is just what I'm always talking about. A thin coat of society and legislation. It tears on occasion on an individual level. It might tear on a larger scale anytime, anywhere.

If someone's grave is abundantly pissed on, it's that of Justice Jackson, who foolishly believed he could set a global example with the Nuremberg tribunal. No aggressive war, no genocide was what he wanted to achieve. None of this worked out.

Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't happen any more. I'm saying that it is rightly regarded as wrong by the vast majority of people. That's a good change from, say, the 19th century, when here in America a common phrase was "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

I'll take what progress we can muster ... we need every little bit of it.

(November 6, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I'll take what progress we can muster ... we need every little bit of it.

But that was my fundamental error when taking my sample group to be representative, back in '83. I know, I may be a cynic when it comes to things like that. But I watched the Milgram experiment and I listen to what the extreme rightwingers bawl at the top of their lungs and how they get more votes with every election. It will happen again. Anywhere, anyhow.

(November 6, 2015 at 6:43 pm)abaris Wrote:

(November 6, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I'll take what progress we can muster ... we need every little bit of it.

But that was my fundamental error when taking my sample group to be representative, back in '83. I know, I may be a cynic when it comes to things like that. But I watched the Milgram experiment and I listen to what the extreme rightwingers bawl at the top of their lungs and how they get more votes with every election. It will happen again. Anywhere, anyhow.

... until enough of us keep speaking out. Yes, Milgram's experiments paint a disheartening picture of us as a species, but progress doesn't happen in one lifetime. We do, however, see it.

(November 6, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: ... until enough of us keep speaking out.  Yes, Milgram's experiments paint a disheartening picture of us as a species, but progress doesn't happen in one lifetime. We do, however, see it.

Do you really think we came a long way since 1945? That's not criticizing your optimism, but the slogans I hear these days are eerily familar. There's a reason why I talked about pissing on the grave of Justice Jackson. Truth is, as noble as his intent may have been, he utterly failed.

It's actually in the first few seconds of his adress.

(November 6, 2015 at 7:59 pm)abaris Wrote:

(November 6, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: ... until enough of us keep speaking out.  Yes, Milgram's experiments paint a disheartening picture of us as a species, but progress doesn't happen in one lifetime. We do, however, see it.

Do you really think we came a long way since 1945? That's not criticizing your optimism, but the slogans I hear these days are eerily familar. There's a reason why I talked about pissing on the grave of Justice Jackson. Truth is, as noble as his intent may have been, he utterly failed.

It's actually in the first few seconds of his adress.

The capacity for mob dynamics still exists but I'm not sure wars of conquest are as viable as they used to be.  I think Thumpa has a point there.  No one imagines marching into countries and enslaving the population.  I don't think many people would be willing to resettle in the conquered land to that end.  (You could rightly mention Israel as a possible exception and the Russians are still spread out into the states of the former USSR.)

But I don't fault humans for having destructive drives.  I just fault us for viewing the planet as our very own petri dish, anything else in it serves us or get crowded out.

(November 7, 2015 at 8:26 am)Whateverist the White Wrote: But I don't fault humans for having destructive drives.  I just fault us for viewing the planet as our very own petri dish, anything else in it serves us or get crowded out.

I'm not faulting humans. But as I said in the beginning, we're still Great Apes going nuclear. With all our old territorial instincts. That's why I also don't buy into that redeeming tale. There's nothing to redeem about nature, only being cautious where it leads us.

(November 6, 2015 at 3:11 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 6:16 pm)Evie Wrote: Most retarded non-sequitur + strawman ever.

The miracle of Christianity is it certainly will enable this or some other Christine to be more nonsensical and stupid tomorrow.

I also hate Christines.  They are always irrational and talk too much.  But hey, at least they put out sometimes-- especially the ones from private schools!

(November 6, 2015 at 7:59 pm)abaris Wrote:

(November 6, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: ... until enough of us keep speaking out.  Yes, Milgram's experiments paint a disheartening picture of us as a species, but progress doesn't happen in one lifetime. We do, however, see it.

Do you really think we came a long way since 1945? That's not criticizing your optimism, but the slogans I hear these days are eerily familar. There's a reason why I talked about pissing on the grave of Justice Jackson. Truth is, as noble as his intent may have been, he utterly failed.

It's actually in the first few seconds of his adress.

Somehow I feel the need to post this video after watching that one.