(November 17, 2015 at 3:35 pm)Mathilda Wrote: What does that even mean?

I'm not an english tutor. 

Quote:Strawman.

Who has been excusing your politicians for being ineffective? Did I say that?

I didn't say that you did, I said that we need you for it.   So...no, not a strawman.....l2logic.

Quote:And you are deluded if you think gun ownership will stop the removal of your civil liberties.

That...would be a strawman.  You're welcome.  

Quote:I noticed for example that you did not counter my argument in my previous post that they haven't yet stopped the NSA from spying on you or the removal of your rights. So at what point is gun ownership going to be useful in stopping a fascist government from rising up. It's called the thin end of a wedge for a reason you know.

You think that's an argument....and why would it matter if it were?  

Quote:And are you even contemplating that there could be something more important than gun ownership in achieving this? Like for example education.

That'd be great, we need more of that, are you under the impression that we disagree?  Why would you be under that impression? Couldn't have anything to do with you being an unintentional shill...now could it?

Quote:What would you prefer? An uneducated gun toting population that believes everything its leaders tell it? Or an educated population with strict gun controls? This is not a false dichotomy because if you choose the latter than you admit that education is more important than gun ownership. If your population is educated and politically aware then you don't need guns because politicians can't get away with their lies and selling you out.

I'd prefer the latter.....and your comments in this demonstrate the truth of precisely what I posted to you.  

Quote:Because by the mere fact of owning a gun you are creating yet one more opportunity for it to be stolen and for it to fall into the hands of a criminal. No matter how careful you are, your house can still be broken into.

That's not actually how criminals get guns.  See, you've been had.   Again, sorry.  A theif can come into my house and steal every gun here, and it won't do him a lick of good (unless he was looking for a club, and a baseball bat is much better at that). He won't even know why they don't work - just like you don;t understand that a gun can be made discreetly inoperative, clearly.

Quote:Also if law abiding citizens own guns then criminals need to carry them. If law abiding citizens did not routinely own guns then criminals would not need to use them. You're probably thinking that they would anyway but they carry a cost. If the criminal gets caught with it then they are more likely to be sent to jail for a long time. If the criminal needs to use one then it's more likely to result in murder which again increases the chances of being caught and sent to jail.

I'm not sure how to respond to this......you think criminals need guns, because law abiding citizens have guns, and this is somehow an argument for gun control?  I would have gone the route of "because the police executioners have them", if I was going that route to begin with....but I wouldn't...because that route is nuts, fundamentally (and I don;t think that cops need them either). No one needs a gun, for anything - laying aside soldiers and other irrelevance.

You, are, a, shill. This was a shill's response, completely in line with my last post. Again, I'm sorry, and it's not your fault...we're assholes (and apparently, we're pretty good at it). No one likes to think that they've been had. You have been. I'm not who you think I am, but I am very much pro-gun......and perhaps you ought to ask yourself who told you that I was whoever you have in mind?

Do something about it.

You know I hate to say it, but is there any law that can be made that would prevent terrorism? No. Terrorists are fanatical and will do anything to terrorize and use anything at their disposal.

Seriously, what do we have in place right now to stop a group of madmen who decide to create home made vest bombs, go to a downtown sporting event where over 50,000 usually attend, have one go to each entrance gate and detonate themselves? The ONLY defense we have against this is intelligence. People don't like the idea of "big brother" and watching all of our communications, etc, but intelligence has truly been the only deterrent to stopping attacks.

More guns, or allowing people to carry firearms is not the answer. Causes more panic and raises the risk of collateral damage.

If there were no guns, just picture this for a second, no guns at all. terrorists would still find ways to cause terror and panic. Anyone remember the crazy jewish man stabbing people in the street at a gay pride parade? Determined fanatics will always find a way to cause terror. We need more intelligence and surveillance, I hate the argument about our privacy. If you have nothing to hide, you should have nothing to fear. The government doesn't care about your love affair or your addiction to porn.

(November 17, 2015 at 3:57 pm)Kingpin Wrote:  The government doesn't care about your love affair or your addiction to porn.

Until it does, until it provides leverage. Our government absolutely will use your love affair or addiction to porn to manipulate you...lol. We don't need -more- surveillance, we need -better- surveillance. I don't have anything to hide in my pants either, but I'm not going to open my fly just because you (or Uncle Sam) think you have a need to see my dick. Telling me that it helps you catch the bad guys doesn't move me. I'll just tell you to get better at catching bad guys in a way that doesn't involve gazing at my unit, at your convenience. If you (or they) just can't manage that...then why aren't you being terminated for gross incompetance?

I don't have anything to hide...but even if I did, that doesn't make it your (or Uncle Sams) business to look. We're afraid of Big Brother...because we -should- be. That's the appropriate response.

(November 17, 2015 at 3:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 17, 2015 at 3:35 pm)Mathilda Wrote: What does that even mean?

I'm not an english tutor. 

Word salad can be grammatically correct. Doesn't mean that it makes any sense.

(November 17, 2015 at 3:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 17, 2015 at 3:35 pm)Mathilda Wrote: Strawman.

Who has been excusing your politicians for being ineffective? Did I say that?

I didn't say that you did, I said that we need you for it.   So...no, not a strawman.....l2logic.

So you (as in who? we the gun owning population?) need me to excuse politicians for being ineffective? Why? How? You're not even making any sense now. Or is this word salad again?

(November 17, 2015 at 3:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 17, 2015 at 3:35 pm)Mathilda Wrote: And you are deluded if you think gun ownership will stop the removal of your civil liberties.

That...would be a strawman.  You're welcome.  

Let's revisit your reply shall we?

Quote:

(November 17, 2015 at 12:53 pm)Mathilda Wrote: What other country is so obsessed with a single subject? There are more gun threads started on forums with Americans than threads about cars, sex, computers or video games.

That right there tells you that America has a problem with guns in one form or another.

(November 17, 2015 at 12:57 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It tells you we have a problem with the possibility of an erosion of our rights based upon shitty logic and political opportunism.  Just a small thing to you, I know..............I know............

I was referring to you saying this in answer to my post that America is obsessed and has a problem with guns. It looked like you were saying that gun ownership was stopping the erosion of your rights. That has certainly been an argument on the many gun threads in the past so I assumed that's what you are saying. Instead it seems you are saying that strict gun controls are themselves an erosion of your rights ... all the while ignoring the fact that they would make your country a safer place. So you think that your own personal rights take priority over other people's suffering? Got it. Maybe you should read some economics and learn the concept of transferring cost onto a third party. All hail the American dream.

(November 17, 2015 at 3:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 17, 2015 at 3:35 pm)Mathilda Wrote: Because by the mere fact of owning a gun you are creating yet one more opportunity for it to be stolen and for it to fall into the hands of a criminal. No matter how careful you are, your house can still be broken into.

That's not actually how criminals get guns.  See, you've been had.   Again, sorry.  

I did not say that was how criminals get guns. But gun controls have to start somewhere and if the government makes it harder for criminals to obtain them then there is still a large pool of weapons out there that they can steal from. Also by buying and maintaining guns you are supporting an industry that can lobby the government to prevent strict gun controls from being brought in.

You still think you're disagreeing with me on these issues, fundamentally, and this continues to show how completely you've been co-opted. I don't know what to say, you're going to have to approach this some other way, or I'll end up repeating myself unto eternity.

I am pro-gun, and pro-gun control. Can your mind allow for these things to exist within a single person? I have guns, and my guns are not contributing (nor will they ever) to our gun problem, can your mind allow for that possibility?

Quote:I am pro-gun, and pro-gun control.

That's one of the most sensible things I've read in this thread. I have a good mate who owns guns, and he is firmly of the opinion that there are a LOT of people around who shouldn't have them.

Quote:I have guns, and my guns are not contributing (nor will they ever) to our gun problem

Aww, you just lost me. Can you be utterly certain that your guns will never be stolen and used in a crime? I don't see how you can make that claim.

Boru

I can be certain that their only use, if stolen, is as a club.  Yeah. Let me give you a rundown.

That's why I call massive and inarguable bullshit on these "it just went off", "I don't know how the kid got ahold of it", and "he stole my gun" types. No it didn't, yes you do...and it shouldn't matter if someone stole your gun. Failure in any of these categories, is a crime...failure in even one of them can be a felony, depending on the state. If a person can't manage to avoid committing a felony they don't get to own a firearm...and this is already federal law.

A properly secured firearm is less dangerous than a godamned kitchen knife, and my car is more likely to be stolen, in addition to being easier to steal, and then used in the commission of a crime. Not that our gun problem has much to do with people stealing guns...in the first place. The crushing majority of guns used in the commission of a crime are purchased. Straw purchases....already illegal. Fuck those guys right alongside the people up above. They are ruining my favorite hobby, and a not-so-insignificant portion of my heritage. If we ever go the route of "no-guns" it will be because of those cocksuckers, and that puts me and a very large number of law abiding..responsible gun owners (hi Min, lol) out. So of course -we're- for gun control, just as a pilot is pro FAA regs...because he likes to fly and doesn't want some smchuck either colliding with him mid-air, on the runway...or otherwise affecting -his- hobby.

On that note, enjoy.

Quote:Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/.../guns.html

The article above will direct you to a significant portion of our -actual- gun problem, as opposed to the fantasies bandied about by politicians seeking supporters and the promise of an easy, single issue campaign run. Good luck getting the reds to go after "small business owners" though.....and good luck getting the blues to admit that the simple existence of a gun does not ensure the death of 40 children.... someday, somehow...it's become a veritable pillar of the party platform.

The situation is infuriating...as a shooter, I'm sure that comes across in my posts, lol. I've spent more than three decades getting good at this, it's a perishable skill, I used it in our service, and it brings me great happiness while harming -no one-. I don't even understand why there's a need to explain myself, why I'm put on the defensive by my peers for having the audacity to own a firearm; why a person would even suggest that I may be part of our problem.

A not-too-outlandish scenario:

I break into your home while you're there with your family (you can't stop me, your guns are all locked away). I immediately shoot one of your kids dead, then I grab another one and tell you to give me all your guns or I'll kill this child as well.

Option One: You love your child, so you give me your guns.

Option Two: You love your guns and gun safety more than your child, so you refuse.

Boru

Regardless of whether the gun is stolen or not, you are still funding a massive industry with a vested interest in removing gun controls that can and does lobby the government. The more money they have the more effectively they can lobby the government.

This entire conversation came about though because of your response to my post:

(November 17, 2015 at 12:53 pm)Mathilda Wrote: What other country is so obsessed with a single subject? There are more gun threads started on forums with Americans than threads about cars, sex, computers or video games.

That right there tells you that America has a problem with guns in one form or another.

You replied with:

(November 17, 2015 at 12:57 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It tells you we have a problem with the possibility of an erosion of our rights based upon shitty logic and political opportunism.  Just a small thing to you, I know..............I know............

I am still confused as to why Americans are so obsessed with their guns. It's been a few days now and I still can't think of another country so obsessed with a single subject.

But if you are not arguing that gun ownership is a defence against the erosion of civil liberties as you later stated, then you must be saying that your rights to own and play with guns as a hobby are being infringed. Unless there is some other reason that you need to use a handgun?

This would strike me as a first world problem, except that no other first world countries have America's gun problem.

Do you deny that if stricter gun controls were to be brought in that the gun industry would not be so profitable? There would be fewer guns, bullets and accessories manufactured. Do you deny that gun industry uses its profits to lobby your government?

http://financesonline.com/the-nra-is-lob...the-bills/

So what you are arguing is that you are prepared to live in a society where violence can be more easily and effectively carried out so that you can enjoy playing with your guns?

If you argue that you need a handgun for self defence rather than just as a hobby, then your argument about them not being stolen becomes void because to be useful they first need to be assembled and carried. And if your society is so violent that you need a gun for self defence then you need reduce the proliferation of guns, not encourage it.

(November 19, 2015 at 11:40 pm)Rhythm Wrote: The situation is infuriating...as a shooter, I'm sure that comes across in my posts, lol. I've spent more than three decades getting good at this, it's a perishable skill, I used it in our service, and it brings me great happiness while harming -no one-. I don't even understand why there's a need to explain myself, why I'm put on the defensive by my peers for having the audacity to own a firearm; why a person would even suggest that I may be part of our problem.

You do seem like a responsible gun owner and I can understand you wanting more gun control. The fact is that America does have a massive and chronic gun problem. In another country, like Germany for example, there would be no problem with you continuing to enjoy your guns. But there are other hobbies with far lower costs to others in society.

(November 20, 2015 at 5:15 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: A not-too-outlandish scenario:

I break into your home while you're there with your family (you can't stop me, your guns are all locked away).  I immediately shoot one of your kids dead, then I grab another one and tell you to give me all your guns or I'll kill this child as well.

Option One:  You love your child, so you give me your guns.

Option Two:  You love your guns and gun safety more than your child, so you refuse.

Boru

You don't think that's outlandish.......really?  I explain some (but not all) of the steps a person can take to secure their firearms...and also that stolen firearms are irrelevant when it comes to our gun problem.....and you imagine a random hostage taking scenario in rural america as a way to double down?  

Firstly, having my guns at-the-ready isn't going to help me in that scenario, because I'm not going to shoot at someone who has my kid.  It would be an exceedingly bad idea.  Secondly, they can fucking have my guns...I -just- got through explaining to you, that they are inoperative.  The strangest bit..is that in your situation...the intruder -already- has a gun............  Wtf is this silly bullshit Boru? Let me get this straight. Man with a gun, knows I have lots of guns...but also that I won;t shoot him with my lots of guns, gets into my house unnoticed and grabs one of my kids, demands my guns...then knows how to circumvent every step I;ve taken. Criminal, mastermind....not your average B and E'er...I don't know what else to say. He went through an awful lot of needless trouble and risk for some rifles he could have purchased on a whim at one of any number of gunshops, pawn shops, and p2p swaps.

(November 20, 2015 at 5:42 am)Mathilda Wrote: Regardless of whether the gun is stolen or not, you are still funding a massive industry with a vested interest in removing gun controls that can and does lobby the government. The more money they have the more effectively they can lobby the government.

As you're funding a massive industry with a vested interest in removing all sensibility, dealing more death than gun manufacturers..every time you put sugar in your tea.  I'm only forced to make these ridiculous comparisons because your criticism is ridiculous in the first place.  I don't give a shit about their business interests.  We legislate against business interests all the time.  It would hardly be something new and radical.  Everytime someone pops up the NRA bit I wonder why they feel that they can establish the guilt of firearm manufacturers by acquaintance.  The people who make guns insist at every turn that we secure them and operate them safely...and some of that probably has to do with them also manufacturing the trigger locks, bolt guards, muzzle assemblies, hammer keys, safety mechanisms................  

If you're ever in my neck of the woods, I'd love to take you on a tour of the Winchester arms plant, not but 10 minutes from me.  Somehow, who knows how, despite the fact that we make the guns right here...the place isn't a warzone. I want you to see the people who -actually- make guns.  I'd like to see you levy your suspicians against a guy named Joe who works in a factory producing a quality product....who prides himself on the safety of that product.  It's easy...when they're a nameless faceless monolith painted as some sort of Bond villain.  It's much more difficult to maintain these comments you've made when faced with the reality behind any of them.  

(November 17, 2015 at 12:53 pm)Mathilda Wrote: What other country is so obsessed with a single subject? There are more gun threads started on forums with Americans than threads about cars, sex, computers or video games.

That right there tells you that America has a problem with guns in one form or another.

I doubt that you'll be able to even begin to back that up.  But so what if we did start more threads on guns.....we're obsessed with our rights.  No ones squawking about taking my car away because someone else drives drunk, no ones squawking about castrating me because someone else is a rapist, no one has suggested that my electronics should be illegal because someone else is an identity theif.

Quote:I am still confused as to why Americans are so obsessed with their guns. It's been a few days now and I still can't think of another country so obsessed with a single subject.

But if you are not arguing that gun ownership is a defence against the erosion of civil liberties as you later stated, then you must be saying that your rights to own and play with guns as a hobby are being infringed. Unless there is some other reason that you need to use a handgun?

I don't own a handgun, and I don't think anyone needs a gun for anything - as I've already said.  Yes....whenever someone suggests that guns should be made illegal, someone is suggesting that my rights should be infringed.  Someone is also suggesting that the government should legislate against yours truly despite the fact that I am not nor will ever be a part of our gun problem.  That's a bit of an issue for me.

Quote:This would strike me as a first world problem, except that no other first world countries have America's gun problem.

Do you deny that if stricter gun controls were to be brought in that the gun industry would not be so profitable? There would be fewer guns, bullets and accessories manufactured. Do you deny that gun industry uses its profits to lobby your government?

They would adjust their prices to compensate. The erosion of rights and liberty is by no means a first world problem.  This message was paid for by Citizens For A Better Appraisal Of Reality.

Quote:So what you are arguing is that you are prepared to live in a society where violence can be more easily and effectively carried out so that you can enjoy playing with your guns?

I won't trade freedom for a sense of false security, no.  That's how we got the patriot act.  Is that so strange?  There is no causal relationship between stricter gun laws and a reduction in crime.  Criminals don't need guns to be effective, and laws banning or restricting guns don't stop them from acquiring them in the first place.  If you'll recall..."somehow" a quarter of all homocide in france is gun related.  

Quote:If you argue that you need a handgun for self defence rather than just as a hobby, then your argument about them not being stolen becomes void because to be useful they first need to be assembled and carried. And if your society is so violent that you need a gun for self defence then you need reduce the proliferation of guns, not encourage it.

Except that I -don't- argue that, nor do I keep any of my firearms for self defence... the US isn't as violent a society as people think it is...and it's getting less violent with each passing year even as guns proliferate.  I live at the end of a quiet country road in a county that has more guns than most armies can muster, minutes away from a factory that makes guns.....and yet, you don't see much homocide round these parts, gun related or not. Incorporate those facts into your worldview, shill.  

Quote:You do seem like a responsible gun owner and I can understand you wanting more gun control. The fact is that America does have a massive and chronic gun problem. In another country, like Germany for example, there would be no problem with you continuing to enjoy your guns. But there are other hobbies with far lower costs to others in society.

Yes, we do have a gun problem, and that gun problem is not gun ownership, or the existence of guns, and my hobby has -no cost-....get that through your shilling skull...-no cost-, to society.  The continued existence of our gun problem has to do with the existence of shills like yourself who block and prevent any and all effective gun control on the one hand...while wasting our time and resources pursuing ineffective gun control on the other.  They do this, not..I think, out of malice....but because their ideas of our gun problem and effective solutions are based upon fantasy, fed to them by actors with a vested interest....which seemed to be important to you at the beginning of this post.

We have excellent statutes that we do not enforce, shitty ones that we do....and have created an overall environment where it seems to make more sense, to the denizens of our urban areas, to pick up a gun than to pick up a trade. This, is our gun problem.