How would the government protect the "rights" of a fetus? The only ways I can think of are to punish people who have been found to have had an abortion, or to imprison pregnant women so that they can't seek an abortion.

I would hope no one would suggest the latter, so what would be a suitable punishment in the eyes of someone who wants abortion to be illegal?

Or... would it be the person who carried out the abortion who got punished? Or both?

(November 28, 2015 at 8:10 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Abortion is different because there is a victim involved. It isn't just something you do to yourself, but rather, you are taking away the right of someone else. In this case, you are taking away the unborn human's right to life. I do believe their right to life should be protected under the law. Unless in cases where the mother would die, then it becomes a medical issue up for the family and the doctors to deal with.

I have some questions for you on this point then. Please take all the time you need to marinate on the value of the human life that is capable of thought. 

Where do you stand on the issue of pregnancy resulting in a rape? Sexual intercourse in this case is NOT wanted. It is a violation of another's personal space. Not to mention, it's illegal. 

Where do you stand on a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body? 

How comfortable would you be with having your government tell you what you can and cannot do with your private parts?

What if it was a 13 year old female who got impregnated by a relative via sexual abuse?

What if you were on birth control and it failed? Would you still demand that the woman have the baby? A baby that wasn't planned or that she couldn't financially afford to care for, hence the reason for the birth control. 

Take into consideration that these are not made up scenarios. They are things that have actually happened before. No doubt they will continue to happen.

The idea that the government should dictate what we do with our bodies is obnoxious. Basing such intrusive measures on emotions which fly in the face of scientific facts is doubly so.

I agree that a person can do what they want with his or her own body. That is why I'm not against the legality of prostitution, drug use, and suicide. But an unborn being is not a body part. She/he is their own self with their own body and their own set of DNA.

(November 28, 2015 at 8:19 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Except your not protecting its right to life, your granting a fetus the right to use someone else's body to sustain it's life, that is a right that no human has. So if you wanted to look at it from a legal standpoint, abortion should be legal.

I would argue the fetus already has the right to use someone else's body, because the reproductive system is specifically "designed" for that purpose.

(November 28, 2015 at 11:38 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: I have some questions for you on this point then. Please take all the time you need to marinate on the value of the human life that is capable of thought. 

I hope you don't mind if I answer a few of these:

Quote:Where do you stand on the issue of pregnancy resulting in a rape? Sexual intercourse in this case is NOT wanted. It is a violation of another's personal space. Not to mention, it's illegal. 

As with all these issues, the fact that you will always run into is that there are two people involved in any of these situations, two humans, and both have rights. The rights of one of the humans might conflict with the rights of the other. For instance, the right to life of the fetus might conflict with the right of the woman to do what she wants with her own body, if she wants to abort it. In these conflicts, I side with the right which is more important, and in this case, the right to life pretty much trumps all other rights, because without it, all other rights are easily taken away.

Quote:Where do you stand on a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body? 

I'm for it, of course, however if you think these rights don't have limits, you are mistaken. I, for instance, do not have a right to use my fist to punch someone. Neither, I believe, does a mother have the right to terminate her own child's life.

Quote:How comfortable would you be with having your government tell you what you can and cannot do with your private parts?

Very comfortable, if done for the right reasons. In fact, the government already does tell me what I cannot do with my private parts: it's illegal to piss in public. I'm fine with that; I understand why it's illegal.

Quote:What if it was a 13 year old female who got impregnated by a relative via sexual abuse?

Again, as unfortunate as that scenario is, if the fetus is viable and wouldn't harm the mother, it still has a right to life.

Quote:What if you were on birth control and it failed? Would you still demand that the woman have the baby? A baby that wasn't planned or that she couldn't financially afford to care for, hence the reason for the birth control.

Yes, because couples should be aware that birth control is not 100% effective. If you absolutely don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex. There will always be a risk otherwise. I'm supportive of adoption, of state support for poor families.

Wow Tib, I was going to answer these in the morning but don't even feel like I need to anymore. You took the words right out of my mouth way better than I ever could. I am impressed and surprised by your post.

Honestly, when debating abortion with me (and other anti-abortion people), you only need to convince me of one thing: that human embryos / fetuses aren't human or don't deserve the same human rights as the rest of us.

It would also be helpful if you could tell me when human rights are bestowed on a new human. Does it happen at birth? If so, would you be supportive of abortion right up until birth? Should a woman be allowed to abort the baby in the middle of labor? If not, why not? At what point does killing a baby in the womb become immoral / murder?

Yes, there are 2 debates to be had in the abortion discussion:

1. Is a human fetus a human being?

and

2. If yes, why shouldn't he/she deserve the same right to life as us humans who are born?

(November 29, 2015 at 12:52 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Wow Tib, I was going to answer these in the morning but don't even feel like I need to anymore. You took the words right out of my mouth way better than I ever could. I am impressed and surprised by your post.

Yeah, I'm one of the minority atheists who oppose abortion based solely on rational thinking concerning the concept of "rights". Christopher Hitchens had similar views, at least later in life.

(November 29, 2015 at 12:43 am)Tiberius Wrote:

(November 28, 2015 at 8:19 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: Except your not protecting its right to life, your granting a fetus the right to use someone else's body to sustain it's life, that is a right that no human has. So if you wanted to look at it from a legal standpoint, abortion should be legal.

I would argue the fetus already has the right to use someone else's body, because the reproductive system is specifically "designed" for that purpose.

Actually it doesn't have the right to use a woman's body, reproductive rights belong to the woman, after all it is her body. Just because the fetus needs the woman's body to survive does not mean that it has a right to it.