(November 29, 2015 at 1:02 am)Tiberius Wrote:

(November 29, 2015 at 12:52 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Wow Tib, I was going to answer these in the morning but don't even feel like I need to anymore. You took the words right out of my mouth way better than I ever could. I am impressed and surprised by your post.

Yeah, I'm one of the minority atheists who oppose abortion based solely on rational thinking concerning the concept of "rights". Christopher Hitchens had similar views, at least later in life.

I am surprised more of you don't. For being science people, it seems science flies out the window when abortion discussions come in. 

All of the sudden, a fetus is a body part, even though it is its own separate set of DNA. All of the sudden, a human fetus isn't actually a human despite the fact that he/she has human DNA. 

I respect your honest, rational approach to this.

(November 29, 2015 at 12:43 am)Tiberius Wrote:

(November 28, 2015 at 11:38 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: I have some questions for you on this point then. Please take all the time you need to marinate on the value of the human life that is capable of thought. 

I hope you don't mind if I answer a few of these:

Quote:Where do you stand on a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body? 

I'm for it, of course, however if you think these rights don't have limits, you are mistaken. I, for instance, do not have a right to use my fist to punch someone. Neither, I believe, does a mother have the right to terminate her own child's life.

But you seem to be arguing that a woman should have no more say over what goes on in her body than the rapist that knocks her up.  So long as the rapist successfully scores the goal, according to you she should accept her fate for the next 9 months.  I completely disagree.  It must be her decision that counts.

The abortion argument for me boils down to bodily rights, it doesn't matter to me if you consider the fetus a human being or not. No human has the right to use another humans body for the purpose of sustaining it's life and that goes the same for a fetus.

(November 29, 2015 at 1:01 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, there are 2 debates to be had in the abortion discussion:

1. Is a human fetus a human being?

and

2. If yes, why shouldn't he/she deserve the same right to life as us humans who are born?

Inre #1, Genesis 2:7 is clear, it's not.

Religious folks wishing to apostatize on that item I would prefer be honest and upfront about their disagreement with God, and further, explain why they know better than Him, and yet still acknowledge Him/Son/Holy Ghost as the ultimate arbiters of morality.

I would put the line at viability. Once the fetus has the ability to survive outside of the womb, I would say that is a good line of demarcation. (Or zone, since it's not really a clear cut line.)

But I absolutely take issue with the idea that a woman should not be able to choose what to do with her reproductive system. I disagree that an unborn entity has rights. Legally, that's a can of worms that we do not want to open.

If a woman is on birth control, has sex, it fails, and she goes and has an abortion at 2 weeks, we are talking about a bundle of cells.

This country is absolutely fucked when it comes to family leave. If a woman is low income, working two jobs to pay her rent, and gets pregnant, that will destroy her life. She will lose her job, or more likely, she will have to go back to work 3 days after she gives birth because there is no paid maternity leave.

Also, let's not pretend that adoption is just an easy choice. Like even if you don't want a baby, can't afford a child, can't support a child--like this is an easy thing to do to put it up for adoption. Let's not pretend that the emotional/mental havoc this wreaks in a person's life---just from an evolutionary standpoint---isn't horrendous. And then the fact that we don't have affordable healthcare that includes mental health coverage to help with this.

Let's also not forget the physical toll that pregnancy/childbirth puts on a woman. The dangers that come with pregnancy are still not negligible.

So what anti-choice people are saying, in effect, is that we should force women to undergo this trauma, just because you (global you) personally have defined personhood as a blastocyst attached to a uterine wall.

One of my questions is, where does it stop? If the woman doesn't have control and there are legal issues with abortion, if she smokes while pregnant is she now a child abuser? Drinks? Does anything some people, most people would say well harm the fetus? Laws for this too? What will she be charged with? Fetus endangerment? Where do we draw the line? And if she is held accountable for breaking the law, is she breaking it if she has one more cigarette after a pregnancy test?

I don't know...I don't like where any of that is going...

I know it sounds similar to same sex marriage ruining the sanctity, but I think it is all something to think about.

These are probably dumb questions, and I'm certainly not trying to change anyone's mind. I know I won't change mine. I guess just discussing.

Once you open that can, to take choice away....you can't close it.

(November 29, 2015 at 1:08 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I am surprised more of you don't. For being science people, it seems science flies out the window when abortion discussions come in. 

All of the sudden, a fetus is a body part, even though it is its own separate set of DNA. All of the sudden, a human fetus isn't actually a human despite the fact that he/she has human DNA. 

I respect your honest, rational approach to this.

It's definitely not a body part. I don't recall saying it's not human... but if I ever did I meant it's not a person, in the legal sense. That's the distinguishment I make. (I know this wasn't specifically directed at me, but I wanted to respond)

(November 29, 2015 at 1:08 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 29, 2015 at 1:02 am)Tiberius Wrote: Yeah, I'm one of the minority atheists who oppose abortion based solely on rational thinking concerning the concept of "rights". Christopher Hitchens had similar views, at least later in life.

I am surprised more of you don't. For being science people, it seems science flies out the window when abortion discussions come in. 

All of the sudden, a fetus is a body part, even though it is its own separate set of DNA. All of the sudden, a human fetus isn't actually a human despite the fact that he/she has human DNA. 

I respect your honest, rational approach to this.

I can't agree that any one should be forced to bear a child because someone with an old book of bullshit thinks 'god' wants them to.  When you are getting up with it and changing its diaper then you can pontificate on the joys of motherhood.




In other news:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natio.../76499022/

Quote:As a portrait of Robert Lewis Dear, the gunman alleged to have opened fire inside a Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood on Friday, begins to emerge, the dominant characteristics are that of an odd and aggressive individual often living on the fringes of society.

Quote:James Howie, who lives near one of two Dear-owned properties in remote North Carolina, was asked to do foundation work at a Dear shack in Black Mountain, about 15 miles east of Asheville. After accompanying Dear to the job site, he declined the offer of employment.

"I wouldn't ride with that fellow from here to the mailbox now," Howie told the  on Saturday, adding that Dear struck him as more "crazy" than violent. "I was just glad to get home."

But of course this is 'Murrica and every asshole who wants one gets a gun and all the ammo he wants.

Will they let the guy skate on terrorism charges? They probably will since the Repubs are against Planned Parenthood. If they charge him with terrorism it will implicate the Repubs as being contributing factors in the murders and attempted murders.

You may have a point, Wyrd.

The Klown Kar has been noticeably silent until today.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/ted-cruz...-shooting/

Quote:Ted Cruz first GOP candidate to condemn Friday’s Planned Parenthood shooting

I'm sure that's only because a cop got killed.  If it was a doctor Cruz would be leading the cheers.